I would start at the back. Play a deeper line, maybe add some protection for the youngsters just in front. Someone who could also cover for the RB when he’s out of position. I was thinking of Thiago in this role, as he reminds me of Alonso. But his tendency to give away freekicks could be a liability in this area. Possibly go to 4 1 3 2 or 4 4 2. Sit back and let teams come onto us more.
I agree, but in addition to having become ineffectual, gegenpressing is a system that places huge demands on player stamina, leading to player burnout.
So it’s a double whammy; its been found out by the competition and it is knackering for our players, especially with this depleted squad.
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The ‘gegenpress’ as our default got abandoned a long time ago. We done it in certain games earlier this season (Arsenal at home the best example) but we’re not doing it recently.
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Park the bus and counter-attack.
Does anybody have any idea what we are doing? Because it certainly isn’t working.
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Here’s my thoughts.
We haven’t been pressing because we have the ball. Teams simply let us have it now. Chelsea was the first team we’ve come across other than City that actually came out and tried to play football.
Other than that we need some new ideas about how to break down stubborn defenses.
IMO we are too narrow and offer no change in pace of an attack. I would look to going 4-2-3-1 which then gives two sitting midfielder’s that can cover the full back slots when necessary. I would then tweak our movement to look at getting either Mane / Salah or TAA / Robertson round the outside and behind. I mean the by line needs to be our target. Forget going through the middle, go round and behind. We can be patient in our build up but when we recognise the overload opportunity the pace must lift. Then it’s about getting players in the hole in front of goal.
It’s frustrating as some of us that remember the days of Dalglish as manager first time round will remember the times we used to play like this. Always in behind. Even United under Mr Shouty would do it, particularly with the Know it all but failed manager Neville.
High line, no pressure on the ball, slow possession and lots of crosses. Not the best combination.
Certainly isn’t the fault of gegenpressing, more of which would actually be useful.
Firmino’s pressing numbers are about 60% of what they were in 17/18 and 18/19. Mane and Salah’s are much reduced too.
I guess we’re feeling the effects more than most due to the lack of pre season, injuries and lack of crowds.
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We’re too soft,not forceful enough in our play which allows teams push our players off the ball, creating more time with the ball for their teams in positions which aren’t just possession but probing.
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Interesting stuff. Where did you find this information?
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Any website that ranks Pepe as the best in his category in Europe kinda loses all credibility right there.
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You put it much better than me.
It’s more the individual stats I’m interested in, not their rankings of players.
Didn’t need the stats to see our pressing has fallen off a cliff anyway, they just confirmed it.
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This is it in a nutshell, and this has been happening since we got beat by Watford last season.
A big part of our lack of pressing is the midfield, they just don’t seem to have the legs to get out to press. Gini/Milner were 2 yards behind play most of the game unless someone was running at them.
A huge element missing is our ability to create and score chances from set pieces now Van Dijk is injured. I’m pretty sure we’ve gone from one of the most threatening at set pieces to one of the least in a spell of around 6 months.
The fix for me we don’t have yet, it’s a no.9 who carries a clinical goal threat with feet and head. Until that point we need Keita, Jones, Fabinho and Jota starting as much as possible. Shaqiri shouldn’t be playing, 1 or 2 decent passes per game don’t counter everything else (which there is a lot of bad).
Ideally we’d go something like;
Alisson
Trent Kabak Davies Robbo
Fabinho
Thiago – Keita
Jones
Salah – Jota
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But has our pressing dropped off because we have nobody left to press? 
Even the supposed “top” teams don’t even try to play football against us any more.
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Upon reflection it is my firm belief that it is the loss of VVD, Matip and Gomez that is our major problem. One can argue that they are defenders and our problem isn’t conceding goals but scoring them but they make a crucial difference to the way we play.
All three of the above are supreme on the ball and in passing. They are different individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses (VVD not so much weakness really) but what they do, besides defending, is keep us on the front foot pretty much all the time with their comfort on the ball. All three, and especially when VVD was paired with either one, ensured we could leave two at the back with license to Trent and Robbo to maraud while also having VVD and other to stride forward with the ball and/or pick out key long passes to space. The opposition had to come out to meet our CB ball carriers or put pressure on the ball which leads to space somewhere else. The effect of this cannot be understated as it means the opposition simply had too many options to cover all the time and we invariably were able to break down the bus as we just kept coming, and coming from different angles while also being able to not bother all that much about the counterattack.
Shorn of that we simply cannot replicate the results without the method as the players in there now are simply just not capable of doing so. The midfield suffers, and the attack suffers. We simply cannot play the same way without the personnel able to pull it off and it has proven foolhardy to try. It is on our coaching team that we continued to persist with the same tactics that are not working and a change to suit horses for courses might have still seen poor results but not 6 losses and 2 draws in our last 8 home games. That is just fucking insane and they should take a good hard look at themselves along with the players.
All said and done though, its pointless throwing the baby out with the bath water. Injuries have crippled us this season but the players needed for our style will come back at some point and we can then revaluate certain positions in the squad and tweak them as may be needed. I personally don’t think we need a major rebuild so much as a good refresh and Klopp, while obviously having to bear a lot of the past three months on his back, should not feel the pressure of the whole world on his shoulders either. All things pass and the measure of who we are will be in how we bounce back and not give in. This season is pretty much a loss but we are still in the CL for now and there is plenty to play for. What definitely should not happen is to sacrifice next season for the sake of some short termism. It is what it is, what’s happened has happened and we should support the team and coaching staff as they try to rectify it.
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I don’t think that’s it’s a matter of tactics primarily. Klopp would have to be a moron to want a high line without the required pressure on the ball.
It seems more of a case of mental and physical fatigue accumulated over the past years which the injuries exarcebated to beyond breaking point. What has been the most striking aspect is how slowly the ball is passed and how many terrible decisions are being made especially in the final third.
There is no easy answer other than giving it time and making tactical adjustments that will make better use of whatever output there’s available. The upcoming international break for once should prove useful, although I wouldn’t expect a return to normal standards before the next season.
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Is there an actual Stat for this? I’d be interested to see it along with changes in possession etc.
I’m not calling Klopp a moron but this is what is happening. I see it with my own eyes and every single journalist who are actually at the game are reporting the same. It was our biggest problem v’s Chelsea, we gave players like Jorginho all the time on the ball and he picked us apart all game.
I want to see a concerted effort to plummet down the league table.
This league table that is.
We’ve won this four years running, and look set to win it again.
It’s a clear measure of being soft as shite, letting referees and other teams walk all over us, and not standing up for ourselves.
We should know how this works. Referees will always follow a path of least resistance and are basically cowards.
It’s not the sum of our problems, but it’s where I’d start.
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