Lionel Messi- where next?

The Cruyff Turn
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International football was a mess during the 40s and 50s and it largely derailed his international career. He played on an Argentina team that pulled out of qualification for 50 and 54. He switched to Spain in time for the 58 world cup, but they failed to qualify. He was still hanging on by 62, but was injured and was a non-playing member of their party.

In terms of how this fits into the overall narrative, it’s worth remembering that while Puskas seems to be more famous in the UK, probably because of the impact of that Hungary team and what they did to England, contemporaries from Spain tended to rate Di Stefano as the better player of the 2.

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Neymar left fuming.

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It’s a good line of thought to wonder how players from previous generations might have fared with the conditions that the modern player enjoys.

I loved Maradona and would have him higher than Messi in talent.

Another thing about Maradona, that is not often discussed in best ever debates, is his mental fortitude and/or proneness to addiction. That was part of the Maradona package, and should be included.

With all the modern facilities available to him, maybe he would have scaled even greater heights? Then again, there’s an argument to be made that Maradona would not have availed himself of the benefits of modern training and nutrition. Maybe he would have pissed his supreme talent away, relatively speaking, due to inherent character flaws?

Maybe in a less ‘professional’ era, where conditions, diet and demands were not the same as now, Maradona could rise to the top because his talent was all that it took? Whereas today, massive talent, without the requisite application, doesn’t get as far?

There’s no way of knowing.

What we can say, with more confidence, is who the best players of their own generation are. Messi has been the best player of his generation. In my eyes he didn’t need a World Cup to cement that, but it’s a lovely cherry to now stick on top of an amazing career.

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Ah, Ronaldinho! What a player he was, a pure joy to watch! :+1:

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The world cup win only really ‘ends’ the Messi v Ronaldo debate, and even then it won’t.

There’s no way to really compare players from different eras, all you can do is have your opinion.You can give your reasons and facts, but there will never be a definitive answer.

I’m too young to objectively rate Maradona, my memories are mostly from the 94 World Cup which was far from his finest hour.

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James Milner on making a hard tackle on Lionel Messi in the Champions League:

“He’s incredible, for me the best ever. If you give players like that their own way and too much respect, they’re going to run the game. Sometimes you have to let them know you’re there!” :grinning::grinning:

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We need to throw the chronological order these players came and went from the scene… Would Messi be any good if he didn’t have Ronaldinho (+ Maradona) to learn from… Would Ronaldhino be any good if he didn’t have Maradona to learn from… etc

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Is no-one putting in a shout for Origi? Got to be in the conversation, surely.

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Indeed. Messi is obviously a wonderful, wonderful player. But Maradona is, IMO, the greatest there has ever been. He was unreal.

As for comparing them, imagine them playing in each other’s eras. Imagine Messi having to put up with the kicking Diogo got. Imagine Maradona benefiting from the refereeing Messi gets.

Absolutely no comparison

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The humble stuff was being pushed again.

As I said he is one of the greatest if not the greatest to play football but let’s not pretend he is something he evidently isn’t off it.

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I’ve always found the GOAT conversations a little facile. You cannot really compare players from different eras or without regard to the talent around them.

I look at Messi as the best player of his era - ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo. I felt that way before this World Cup and still feel the same thereafter.

But beyond that? I truly cannot say. I was too young to watch Maradona at his best. I was not even born when Pele was playing. Ronaldinho was probably my favorite player to watch in the 2000s, but his peak was relatively short by comparison. Ronaldo Nazario was glorious at his peak. Zidane was unbelievable as well.

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Imagine putting anyone anywhere in time straight away in a moment, everyone on both sides would struggle, no shit.

But being born and learning how to live in that time, then you can still potentially fulfill your ceiling or get close to it.

We can create theoretical situations all day and still come to no serious conclusions (doesn’t mean we shouldn’t talk about it and keep dreaming).

Imagine Messi without the help he got from science and football knowledge/upbringing at Barca of this day or imagine Maradona with all the tests, professional requierements, attention and tactical discipline of this day.

I’d say if there are no unlucky circumstances, both of them probably end up at a high level of football in either eras. How high? Quaresma high or Messi high? Who knows.

I believe there are plenty of other potential Messis, Maradonas and Peles who though a combination of reasons and timing just didn’t get there. Not taking away the main credit which always goes to the player himself.

Maradona will always be important, because he was one of the first. It’s also culture, it’s romance, it’s tragedy, so it’s more human and relatable, it’s more emotional, more mythical (time might do that to Messi as well), etc.

Football is much more “planned” these days, less spontaneous. Players were more like mavericks back in the day and perhaps people miss that. Now, you still get the rare high quality entertainer like Ronaldo or Ronaldinho.

Watch a game from the mid-2000’s and I mean a top PL game and you immediately see the difference. Compared to today. It’s so striking it’s unbeliveable. You only need 20 seconds or so, how a team manages a sequence or phase of play. It’s not to criticize the past, but the ceiling and collective abilities of teams has gone up.

But I’d never downgrade Messi’s skills that much because he plays in a very, very effective way. I just wouldn’t create such an important distance between their pure football abilities. It’s the highest level with both of them. We can talk about details and fine margins.

The rest is just personal taste of course. We are no robots, everyone is at least 51% subjective over any topic. But objectivelly I’d say the most mentioned ones are all up there and deservedly so.

It’s a team sport at the end of the day so it’s more difficult.

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who has won damned near everything and not even had a whisper? Giroux…

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The crazy thing is, if you look at Maradona, he hit about every pitfall that usually stops a career, and still managed to be one of the greats.

If you replay his career and he never goes off the rails, what’s it look like? Probably a lot like Messi’s, if we’re honest. Never gets thrown out of Barca, and ages into other people running around for him like Messi has currently. It’s mind boggling to think about the heights Maradona hit with his personnel demons in tow.

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Great post @Zoran , agree 100%!

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I’ve always thought this as well. Fitness plays a major role I think. A bad injury at an early stage of a career can break a player’s potential. Then you have of course other circumstances like the people who are around a player. How will they support him, will they go for the easy/early money? Will they be a help or a hinderance?

There are so much circumstances… One thing which definitely helped Messi (and Ronaldo too btw.) was that he almost never got injured during his career. An absolute machine in that regard.

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Off topic but don’t like how people dismiss Zidane. Maybe its just me, but midfielders have always been my favourite position. Thats where I feel the real battle on the pitch happens. Zidane, Totti, Kaka, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Gattuso etc. were some of the players for whom I used to watch any matches I could catch just to see what they would do.

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Goal scoring is difficult and at a premium; hence goalscorers get a lion’s share of the accolades. I don’t watch much football outside the Prem, but the player I’d start with in building a side would be KDB. Won’t get Ballon d’ Or and so forth, but has to be one of the most valuable footballers on the planet by contribution all over the pitch.

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Zidane is an interesting one.

I have a few people I know who think he’s a little bit overrated (when it comes to these “best ever” or “all time XI” conversations). They think he’s maybe loved too much because of his elegance and style.

I don’t think he is overrated and I loved his style, it’s incredible how he played with the physical stature he had.

But maybe in the best players ever bracket, he might come a bit short. We have to draw a line somewhere I feel.

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I agree with Zoran on Zidane. Great player. So balanced, fine touch, two footed, elegant. So much to like.

But he is in a bracket below a very small group in a best ever conversation.

Btw, our own Kenny Dalglish never gets mentioned in these conversations. I would put him in the bracket below best of all time, alongside the likes of Zidane and Cruyff.

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