I feel so sorry about the players. Yes, they have been treated and may have acted like divas; but they are a talented lot and most of them work very hard. They won the league, they are in the final of CL; and yet, they are treated with an obnoxious silence.
Playing find the zucchini with the City players behind closed doors probably.
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You shouldnât feel sorry about them, mate. They chose to go there, nobody forced them to. Let them enjoy their empty success.
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Thatâs why I feel sorry for them. They will never know how it feels to be heroes, to be cherished. They can only wish to be treated like the way we treat Lucas Leiva or Divock Origi.
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Ah yes I understand what you mean now. Fair point.
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Congrats to City I guess - they were unchallenged by all this season - easy pickings for them I guess. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Edit: I guess we were in their position (or even better) last year so canât be too bitter about them going unchallenged? Hmmmm
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I feel so sorry about the players. Yes, they have been treated and may have acted like divas; but they are a talented lot and most of them work very hard. They won the league, they are in the final of CL; and yet, they are treated with an obnoxious silence.
[/quote]
lftikharâŠ
how on earth can anyone feel sorry for the likes ofâŠ
Bernardo SilvaâŠ!!
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Fuck Man City.
I donât feel sorry for any of those wankers
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Fucking come back to us when you can to that Ederson ya fucking joker
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Anyone says Guardiola isnât a great manager is talking nonsense obviously. But Zoran the way you talk, youâd think Guardiola invented football.
I love how Rijkaard is conveniently forgotten when Pep and Barca are mentioned and boy was the football boring to watch tiki Taki crappy.
I love how Heynickes is conveniently forgotten when talking about Pep and Bayern and boy was his football boring to watch, especially compared to Juppâs.
I love how Mancini and Pellegrini are conveniently forgotten when Man City are mentioned. Boy the football granted is still boring but has improved.
My point being that not once, even at THE/one of the biggest/richest clubs has he started a project. No heâs managed every one of the clubâs when the timing has been right and has tons of money at his disposal. Also walked away from Barca when they needed a bit of a rebuild. On the other hand LFC were a fallen giant. Klopp took on the project and actually should have a Europa cup win on his list. In the first half against Seville we had 3 blatent penos refused.
Heâs kept them at the top and won a lot, like I said, great manager, shrewd and intelligent.
So pardon me Zoran if everyone here wonât bow down to your superior football knowledge and acknowledge Pep as the living breathing god of football.
By the way ZZ - 3 champions league titles is actually not to be sniffed at. Won other stuff too. Probably not given the credit he deserves.
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Of course heâs not God (nobody is) and he didnât invent football, we can say that heâs the continuator of Cruyff and made that idea even more complete in modern times and successful.
If you read my posts carefully, I mentioned all those other managers in some context. All of them had nowhere near the results Pep had. Only in flashes.
I think the football was massively popular (and still is), even if for some that was and remains boring and thatâs okay. But that boring crap was the style that influenced modern football the most. There is something from Pepâs Barca in basically any successful team today, regardless of itâs principles, which can be different (like ours, but we have certain things in common, or what we strive to evolve into, which we already did).
It probably just goes in circles. A team wants a balance of intensity and control. A wild team strives to control games better. A controlling team wants more energy and pace. Pepâs idea is a pretty complete little circle what a team does with and without the ball, everyone is involved in everything. Thatâs the footballing code weâre living in now. Not the first time in history of course, but heâll surely go down as a very important figure. Some fans find it boring? No shit, you can never fully please us. It is how it is. The king is dead, long live the king, etc.
I also said multiple times that we can disagree, I donât intent to make someone a fan of Pep. I donât mind if Iâm alone here as one, but Iâm sure if we talk seriously and without bias that Iâm not.
Zidane surely doesnât get enough credit he deserves (me included), but it was also interesting to see other top clubs coldly ignore him when he left Real, before he quickly re-joined them. Accidentally or? Can the world of football be wrong? Sure it can, happens every day at all levels. All at once? Nah, I donât think so. Weâll see how his career continues, heâll hope for more interest and success the next time he leaves Real. Valid question, just like it was valid when Pep left Barca, although Zidane didnât have such success with Real.
So what do we do with Mr. Dettmar Cramer, who won 2 of 6 Bayernâs CLâs (2 of his 3 trophies for Bayern)?
I have nothing else to say other than: Pep, since heâs in the job (2008 until now), is surely one of, but arguably the best in his business. As years go by, slowly but surely raising to some heights that go beyond his generation. I hope we beat him every time, but seriously speaking - heâs absolutely brilliant.
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Hmm, I did read your posts carefully. Up your own ass? Maybe a bit.
Pep is a top top manager no doubt. I never mentioned in my post the Champions league as a stick to beat him with.
- I donât know what your point is regarding Cramer and my post.
- Other managers have maybe not been âas successfulâ as long but have had more impressive achievements, example Mourinho champions league wins with Porto and Inter Milan.
- Pass and move is basically the same as Tiki taka. I agree football is circular.
- My understanding of ZZ is he realised Real needed a rebuild couldnât any guarantees from Florentino as regards money, so he left. Wise, didnât want to tarnish his rep and was quite happy to have a year off with his wife and family.
- He has never built a project even at the rich clubs heâs been at. You never addressed this point by the way.
Yes, in the currently top 2 managers of World football. Klopp gets my number 1 slot. Why because he won things with Dortmund, solid club and LFC fallen giant. But he started and finished the projects. His football in my opinion is way more exciting to watch (usually).
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Certainly not up my own arse (we donât have to talk like that), just that itâs not true that I forgot about other managers, which is what you said. We can go through all of them and exchange views. There are a lot of quality managers. I donât think we should lead a battle here who is better, Pep or Klopp. Both are brilliant in their own way and story so far. Pep is a bit more in my opinion. There are others as well. Mourinho has dropped in last years, but also started almost 10 years before Pep as well.
Building a project on the pitch? Iâd say better than anyone else out there during his time, thatâs his main strength, the on the pitch stuff. What else do we define by that? Also knowing that certain clubs work differently. Klopp wasnât alone at Dortmund or at Liverpool. Just like Pep wasnât. He was/is a massive part, thatâs for sure. Theyâre not the Alex Ferguson type, that era is over and Wenger was probably the last example at the top level. But I see other coaches getting chances and simply failing or not doing as well or as consistently well.
We have a lot of questions which we possibly/probably will never witness. Pep taking over a Spurs or Roma? Maybe when his level drops like Mourinhoâs has lately, who knows, Iâd be as curious as everyone to follow that as well. Klopp trying to do his thing at a dressing room like Real Madrid with someone like Perez above him? Very interesting one as well. Other top coaches have failed, others have succeeded. Language barrier would be an issue, though nobody prevents him from taking a year off to learn Spanish. I donât live in some illusion that he would reject Reals of this world by default because heâs leading some sacred mission with clubs like Dortmund and Liverpool. Yeah, his career might end without a club like Real on his CV (just like Pepâs without a Dortmund). But those are stories for kids.
My opinion possibly wouldnât change much, because by large, theyâve already proven themselves. Especially Pep. I just donât dramatize that much (I did more when I was younger), the differences between Pep and Klopp (theyâre actually pretty similar as individuals, which you can sense from high mutual respect), Liverpool and the rest of the elite clubs (sure, some richer than us, but we are also rich in our own way), FSG and someone like Abramovic or the rest. Itâs more or less the same type of people. Need to find examples much, much lower down football chain to get, I donât know, something a proper fan wants?
I hope you get my reasons, nothing else. Thereâs a Liverpool fan in my and also a general football fan. The football fan canât ignore and not like what Pep did in his 13 years as a coach. He will only grow with time (and you can bet the day he stops coaching!), itâs just natural. I just appreciate what I see in front of my eyes right now. Different stuff, different levels, different context. And I think a lot of us underrate some of the difficulties at all those levels. Which is why some careers are rare, some successes are rare, to win a lot of CLâs is rare, to have coaches with 20-30 major trophies is rare. Doesnât happen much.
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OK. As I said Pep in the top 2 managers around.
Although Zidane has won 11 trophies from what I can see in career with Real starting from 2016 with a year off. Underrated? Much. World of football not wrong for for not beating down his door? Probably. Although you didnât agree.
Now Pep didnât build those projects. I donât care what you say. You are changing/playing with words (project on the pitch) to suit your narrative that Pep is the greatest (going by number of trophys itâs hard to argue he isnât). You can only do the on the pitch stuff if everything else is in place.
BUT and itâs a big but, he didnât get in at the start of letâs take for example Man Cityâs project. He came in when they had already got a great team together, had already won a few trophys, leagues, then spent a lorry load of money, buying some tripe in the process but keeping them very successful. His tactics, drive, intelligence, etc have played a big part and the money has also played a big part.
I donât need Pep to go and manage Everton or Roma or whoever. Thatâs nothing to do with it, at least not for me.
Iâm saying heâs very careful about the timing of when he takes his jobs.
Where is there left for Pep to go after Man City? Possibly PSG. Thatâs it really. There are some fallen giants left, AC Milan. Will he go there? I would say no.
As regards Klopp and Pep itâs a bit like Rafa and Mourinho.
I think to build a team capable of sustained success money plays a bigger part for Pep and Mourinho than it did/does for Rafa and Klopp. So the success of Klopp and Rafa is more earned.
My opinion possibly wouldnât change much, because by large, theyâve already proven themselves. Especially Pep. I just donât dramatize that much (I did more when I was younger
This bit exemplifies why I said you are up your own ass a bit as well as the if you read my posts carefully bit. Almost like youâre passing on a nugget of information we canât see. You referenced the managers but not in the framework of them doing the grunt work (granted also spending money) and Pep rocking up to reap the rewards albeit successfully.
At the end of the day itâs opinions. Both are great managers. Just in my opinion Kloppâs success has more merit.
I really think Josep is overrated. As Iâve said above and elsewhere heâs a doper (financial and previously sporting banned substance) and schools his teams to systematically cheat. He is like the kid (or bully) who revels in beating much smaller kids at something and then quickly turning sarcastic and moody if he isnât praised for it. Not too dissimilar to Ferguson in that regard - even got the hypocritical political positions (human rights and socialism respectively) and neither of them seem like theyâd be fun to be around.
Of course he has won lots so heâs not a crap manager (by definition) but Iâm not going to blow further smoke up his ass.
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As @Zoran said, there is absolutely no need for stuff like this. Debate the point, but leave the personal stuff out of it please.
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Iâm not counting domestic Super Cups (as I donât count Charity Shields), but we can if you want. In that case, Pep has 5 more trophies than I give him credit for.
So far, I see Zidane as someone clever, calm, able to keep a dressing room like Realâs happy, shows he can rotate well players/systems. But to be fair, regardless of 9 trophies for Real and 2 league titles among it, not for one period did I think that Real side is outstanding in terms of how they perform. They remain a bunch of high quality individuals rather than a high quality team. I guess weâll have to see more of him somewhere else. That question is for me more valid than for Pep when he was leaving Barca, although I was also very interested at the time what and how he does somewhere else next.
Trophies are important, but not the only important of course. I wrote a lot about Pep here in last days/weeks. Itâs also a question mark that doesnât exist anymore, which was maybe a hope for people who were/are Mourinho lovers but Pep haters (and again, I donât see why we need to separate instead of saying that both are the most successful modern coaches). âNice football, but doesnât get you any trophies, or at least outside Barca/Spain/Germany/EnglandâŠâ. Heâs highly influential with âhisâ (no, didnât invent it, but mastered it, just like Klopp didnât invent his style of football) football and brought his culture in all places heâs been. Sometimes more successful, sometimes less. But consistently well.
Sure, he didnât takeover Liverpoolâs 2015 team like Klopp, but to be precise, half of that City team was near itâs cycle or well finished when he took over. Their purchases improved a lot, even if he had people upstairs from Barca over there, they mustâve worked together. And a lot of those werenât finished product players, though a lot of them were already very good. Fantastic talents and already of certain quality, yes. In full back areas he went a little bit against himself, proving that heâs not that stubborn, when maybe he shouldâve been in that case. We had a lot more to sell, they had to move out some players who couldnât generate much money anymore. We canât deny that City is financially brilliant during that time and not only that, some strategically good decisions inside that club (weâve seen other rich owners have money, but focus too much on spending it on top finished article players). Also some fishy stuff off the pitch in last years. But the profile of purchases is sometimes exaggerated in the context of time. A lot of those are made out like they were best players in their positions at the time, which is not really true.
Careful about the timing, okay, everyone naturally tries to be, how many times and how long can you be careful and lucky? As years go by and he remains probably the most wanted coach out there and successful, I think it will only prove that it takes a bit more than being careful about when to accept a certain job. You first have to be offered one. And then keep those jobs by providing almost constant success and keep attracting them. I donât see a lot of other coaches doing the same. Iâd like to, but I donât, sorry. Others need time of course, Iâm patient and willing to give them. Iâm not trying to draw a line here, football goes on and opinions will change.
Take Ancelotti, par example, who we can say is in that company in last years. Highly successful, universally likeable (almost like Klopp). Yet, of his 15 major trophies, he only won 4 leagues in his career at the top level (so far). One with Milan, one with Chelsea, one with PSG, one with Bayern. He has managed some top clubs. And the league is the bread and butter for me and a lot of people. Yet, I donât see a lot of people questioning that, like they do with Pep and the CL (I wonder what will be next when/if he wins it a few more times, probably his baldy head). Probably itâs because heâs good old grandpa Carlo (and I repeat, I like him very much, both as a character and manager). Conclusion? Itâs maybe not that simple and easy?
I donât think we can categorically say that Pep will not manage anything less than a top side. Sure, he said he doesnât see himself very long in the game, but that can also change with time. Not long ago, we couldâve said the same about Mourinho. Weâve seen quite a few coaches who had their careers at one, a few or only at big clubs. What he is also though, heâs cynic and sarcastic. Not good in the media, I totally understand why heâs not likeable to a lot of people, but that part doesnât interest me as much as on the pitch. He clearly doesnât enjoy press conferences, especially when itâs the same old crap questions. He canât hide it and is nowhere near able as Klopp (or Mourinho) to turn it into a 200mph humoristic monologue and leave journalists with no answers back.
I get your point, but to me thatâs not fair enough towards Mourinho and Pep and the rest of similar calibre in any era. Why a bunch of other coaches failed before/after places they went and delivered? I love Rafa and perhaps he got the sack a bit too soon at Real (not the first one to do so), but canât we admit that there were also probably a few good reasons to do it? Perhaps he wasnât such a great candidate in the first place (after his latest stuff at Napoli at the time, it was like Real run out of options and just went ânext, next, nextâ, Rafa was always going to get one chance), like he wouldâve been maybe mid/end 00âs? Maybe his ceiling wasnât as high as Joseâs or Pepâs? Absolutely no shame in that, if thatâs the case. Iâm not saying some place, somewhere, Rafa is able to coach and lead a top, top side to multiple titles. But perhaps heâs less able than some others and itâs not about âI want projects like Valencia, Liverpool and Napoli and never really wanted options like Inter, Chelsea and especially Realâ. I donât think itâs how it works, for me, thatâs just fairy tales for kids. Rafa would probably stay 10 years at Real if he couldâve done. Itâs his club. Probably start at Real when he worked alongside Del Bosque, like Pep at Barca. Who wouldnât? But not everyone can. Football makes mistakes, but in the long run, quality prevails.
I think itâs natural that masses of fans care more about the âpoorâ and âoh, theyâre not getting chancesâ, but the poor here arenât poor in my books. Need to look somewhere else, much lower down the football pyramid, to have those battles if we need them. Some of those have been in the job for years and years and you only have a few who have really not only survived but provided at the very top level. A lot of the time a coach/manager doesnât even have time to accomplish everything in all the top leagues. Itâs just called circumstances. There are a thousand managers and a few elite/rich clubs. I have no doubt that there are a lot who could do a job and in different ways, but get overlooked. I just think what Pep did so far since his first day in the job and still doing is not normal, that doesnât happen very often in football and I think itâs much more difficult a lot of people say. Yes, itâs also difficult in itâs own way on a different level for Dyche to keep Burnley up on peanuts.
Like I said, would Fergusonâs career at the end be much different if you erased his successes at Aberdeen? I bet you that more than half of football masses donât even know what he did there. Perhaps that he ever was there. But regardless of that, although heâs another rare example that simply isnât normal and who knows if it will be possible in the future, what else can we say about him without bias other than he was one of if not the best manager of his time and one of all times?
There are different difficulties, different levels and types of glories in football. Iâm not saying we should only glorify the likes of Ferguson and Pep. I like someone like Bielsa par example, but maybe we also overrate him a little bit as a coach? Maybe the myth around the man is higher than his real capabilities? That wouldâve brought him to a top side at some point in his career? I think so. Is he âlocoâ enough to keep rejecting them? With someone like him, maybe, just maybe, but during his whole career? Nah, I donât think so. Then, why? Maybe heâs too radical for a top side? Probably. For the majority of things, I think there are good reasons why it happened and still happens and us fans sometimes out of boredoom and need for a story or conspiracy need to question absolutely everything or overdramatize. I donât think it happens only in football, but the best are always zoomed in to the tiniest detail. Maybe another proof why they are among the best.
Donât know where to start but how about half the team Guardiola took over was near the end of itâs cycle.
2016 - City spent ÂŁ133 million
2017 - City Spent ÂŁ238 million (from what I can see).
Thatâs a lot of money for team that had already won titles.
2015 - Hart, Sagna, Kolarov, Otamendi, Mangala, Fernandinho, Yaya TourĂ©, De Bruyne, AgĂŒero Navas, Sterling. (most appearances).
2016 - Bravo, Kolarov, Clichy, Otamendi, Stones, De Bruyne, Silva, Fernandinho, Sterling, AgĂŒero (players with most appearances). Kompany was injured a lot.
2017 - Ederson, Walker, Delph, Otamendi, Kompany, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Silva, Sterling, SanĂ©, AgĂŒero. (players with most appearances).
You used a lot of words to say Guardiola is the best in the world at managing a team if he can have an enormous transfer kitty.
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