Few years back a study grew brain matter. It started producing brain waves similar to that of a fetus. Not just over a short time but over months.
It raised ethical questions before being shut down about it being conscious. Similary there are studies where the brain has been removed from recently dead animals and there is good reason to believe consciousness can be extended beyond having a physical body.
It all reminds me when I was an undergrad. I went to an open day at Bristol University 20 years or so back. They had hundreds of brains in jars. The professor was not impressed when I started singing the song from the Steve Martin movie, The Man with Two Brains.
So if we are going to go with the eternity of matter, then letâs talk of it with all the derision that people have when they talk about God. And letâs look at its proponents sideways in the same way too.
Eternal matter that has just always been there? And so now, rather conveniently, we can theorize about how it gave rise to everything?
Thatâs quite a sky fairy.
People who believe that have got more faith than Iâve got!
I can prove beyond doubt the existence of matter and of gases and atoms and electrons and so on. Therefore it is not such a leap to suggest that atoms for instance, as an example, have always been in existence. This may or may not be true.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence for a supernatural being that has always existed or even one that has been somehow created.
I notice (as have others) that once again you have dodged any of the questions asked about the existence of a God being - it is therefore not worth engaging any further on the subject.
I do not wish to ridicule your beliefs but your failure to be able to address or give an opinion on the fundamental questions asked, only reinforces peoples opposition to your beliefs.
Interestingly matter is also not âeternalâ. At the moment of the big bang there was no matter as such. It had to expand and cool for quarks etc. to come into being from the âstuffâ that was there before. More cooling lead to protons, neutrons etc.vand then these formed the first nuclei. Yet more cooling resulted in electrons being captured and the formation of hydrogen and helium.
I wonât touch on the matter thing, because Noo Noo has spoken to this, and I think itâs covered in one of the videos I posted. Basically, matter is an emergent property of the cooling universe. The Big Bang theory doesnât suggest it was eternal.
I think Jonâs point was that religion has no problem with either the concept of âeternityâ or ânothingâ when it comes to God. But if you say the universe is eternal or nothing existed before it, you get snorts of derision.
If you think anything in science is accepted on faith, then you clearly donât understand faith or science.
When youâre talking about the kind of cutting edge theoretical physics that only very few people can understand, it really doesnât pay to say it doesnât make sense to you so itâs bollocks.
Our knowledge of the origins of the universe is the product of centuries of verified testing and retesting of theories and hypotheses. You can say itâs imperfect. You can say itâs flawed. What you canât say, is that itâs faith.
Letâs hone in the real crux of this issue, and look at why the Big Bang is being discussed in the religion thread.
We can say we reasonable certainty what happened in the universe up to a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. Before that, for all our theories and ideas, we donât know. Weâre trying to find out, and there are some ideas more likely than others, but for now the only honest answer is we donât know.
Does that gap in our knowledge provide a space for God to exist? Is it in any way likely that the solution to the origin of the universe is that it was created by an intelligent force?
I donât think itâs particularly likely, as every time throughout history we thought God did it, it turned out he didnât. The trend is firmly against the God hypothesis.
But we canât 100% rule it out.
So here is the problem for @RedOverTheWater and any other Christian trying to use the uncertainty around the Big Bang as a reason to believe in God. Proving the universe was started by a creator will only get you that far. It canât prove your religion. It doesnât prove the Abrahamic, interventionist God, it says nothing about Jesus, and it certainly doesnât show that there is a force out there that forgives sins, listens to prayers and meddles in daily life. In fact it does nothing to prove the validity of religion, as all youâve shown is that a deistic creator once existed. You still, Iâm afraid, have all your argument to prove regarding your faith.
Fair enough but a very solid theory none the less. Itâs at the moment of the Big Bang we struggle. Up to microseconds after the Big Bang weâre on pretty solid ground I think.
But to bring this back on track, everything from that moment seems to be pretty much as nature intended. Everything seems to follow rules that we have discovered in various theories, studies and of course observations. That to me raises some real questions on the validity of certain religious texts and books. Why did this divine being do something at the very beginning, wait 13.8 billion years, do a little more and then not done anything else for another 2000 years? Seems an odd way of doing things but things like the book of Genesis are clearly just not right.
Now I donât want to deny or corroborate the existence of a God as such but I do think that there are some real issues in certain religious texts, and perhaps beliefs. They are completely at odds with observation. To me that makes those specific aspects just wrong. It doesnât deny the existence of something but I believe religion also needs to understand that some of their beliefs are just not right.
I would like to discuss support systems, of course the 1st of these is the familly but whatâs after that?
1stly my story, as most of you know I suffered from Lyme disease for 15 years, labeled as alcoholic (despite not drinking alocohol outside very rare occassions in company) and hypochondriac by the medical institution (even my own father). Ridiculed by friends and familly, even my own son was persauded by his mothers side I âhad nothingâ (he was only 9 at the onset). I considered myself a very strong person mentally but this destroyed me. I had 1 person who supported me through this, my daughter (8 at the time of onset). Without her I havenât a clue where I would be today (possibly like many sufferers of undiagnosed Lyme disease and in a mental institution). So I managed but only just.
My 2nd example is my childhood friend, who I sorely miss), he died of brain cancer and his mother was distraught. She didnât get the support she required and one day I heard she had become a âborn again christianâ. Going to church and socialising with the congregation really seemed to help her and imo she got close to her old self. Ok this didnât last she fell out with certain people of the congregation due to them putting to much pressure on her however despite shunning this section of the congregation she remained a practicing catholic.
There are other alternatives charities and government schemes these days that can give competent support and should not be ignored. I for example am at present being followed by a nurse from a psychologic health unit (to help me regain enough confidence to get on with my life).
There is one point that is common though, itâs that I was ridiculed for believing I had Lyme disease, my friends mum was ridiculed for turning to the church. What is this ridicule about?
I donât mention to some people that I am followed by a pyschological unit (even though it was my own choice). Ok if I had done so before Lyme I would not have given a shit and would have turned their ridicule against them (then again i didnât need help back then).
My point is is that we need support systems and throughout history religious believes have helped (they undoubtably have also been destructive as well) by offering a support system to those willing to accept the constraints imposed. Due to more open support systems offered to us many no longer âhave toâ fall back on the church (which of course I feel is a good thing) however it is still there for those who can have confidence in âitâ.
@flobs. Thanks for sharing your story. It is really heartbreaking. Much respect for getting through it, and I hope you have managed to reconcile with the family who let you down.
On the support thing, itâs something I think about a lot.
A few years ago when the second kid was on the way, we decided to move out of London back to the midlands. We ended up in a village, hardly London - but at least we could afford a decent sized house and the kids would have a bit more freedom that they would have in the capital.
After a few years I know enough people to be able to socialise every now and then, and not feel lonely. But what I miss is deeper connections with people that I had in London, and havenât been able to replicate up here.
Iâve often reflected that if Iâd been religious Iâd have just joined the local church and found myself instantly in a support structure.
I think one of the considerations that is necessary in a secular society is how religion performs a community function for do many people, and how to replicate and provide this without a God.
None of the stuff Iâve got involved in over the last few years has come anywhere close to replicating the support and friendship structure that I would have had in a church.
Look at the universe now. Itâs big. Billions of galaxies with billions of stars and planets in each. All of that the size of a beachball? So the energy would have been equal to all the current energy in the universe plus all the mass multiplied by the speed of light.
One of the things that I still struggle to get my head around but constantly view with absolute wonder.
Even the concept of being able to compress things as happens in black holes etc.
Hereâs a mind f*** for you. It could be argued that as a complete numpty when it comes to understanding all of this I find myself taking some of this on faith. Is that right?
Thereâs a big part of me wishes I had done things differently as a youngster and was able to follow a career of some description in this.
@Mascott my sister moved to a village in Somerset with her husband (she was living in Bristol he was based in Gloucester.
Itâs still difficult for my sister however her husband got involved with âmountain Resueâ (well cliffs and moorland). They also got involved with local village groups and a whole host of stuff. The thing is though my sisters husband knows these small communities really well (being originally from a small village in Devon and through his work which is restoring old (classified) buildings (joiner carpenter).
I know if you are not familiar with these small communities it can be very difficult. Moving to France wasnât easy either, Iâm still some what of an outsider however I had my major culture shock when I moved to Scotland for Uni. Iâm also a loner and like isolation however even loners need some community (at least a nice dinner and piss up).
Playing Devilâs Advocate here (ha! assuming he even exists, pah!) - isnât this precisely what allowed religion to subjugate the majority of the (largely) uneducated populace?
Only religious scholars were educated in Latin or Greek etc. Only they were allowed/able to read and interpret the scriptures. To most of the uneducated it was gobbledygook - this was exploited such that deference was given to religious clerics and institutions, leading to corruption and abuse.
