hahahaha
Is that you, George?
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Just to be clear: I’m not condoning in any way, shape or form what Russia are doing here.
But it’s geopolitics we are talking about. Moral or ethical reasons have nothing to do with it, unfortunately so. All concerned states will be ruthless when it comes to geopolitics. As has been said earlier in the thread, the US have been far more ruthless than Russia in the near past when it has come to their perceived geopolitical interests, for instance how they handled the Middle East or Afghanistan.
That’s why I think that a good dose of levelheadedness is needed. I don’t like the fear-mongering titles in some media outlets (ie. the Daily Mail), depicting the Russians as the villains, and the US/their allies as the good ones. It doesn’t correspond to reality. Truth is that in this story, both sides are villains, and as always, it’s only normal working people who’ll suffer from the situation.
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Again, I dont think anyone is commenting on ethics of it or saying it is justified. They are only pointing out that the demographics of the area so far pursued means there has been significant internal support for Russia’s actions in those regions, which makes it a very different situation than annexing other parts of the former empire that are not quite so Russian.
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One, this is premised on dumb republican/russian talking points. The ideas were premised on people pretending that the situation was not reported on contemporaneously and so “asking questions” about things that were already public record, pretending that if the answers were not known (they were) then if must be nefarious.
Two, you are comparing traditional diplomacy, in which there was a whole of government response (of which Biden was just the mouthpiece) to internal anti-democratic corruption involving the restriction of foreign aid to literal war and saying it is the same thing.
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was interesting to hear Putins speach last night regarding the history of Russia and the Ukraine,
shame he didnt mention The Holodomor.
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You are regurgitating Russian propaganda which was picked up by Trump and his friends to try and smear Biden before the election. You do remember Trump’s second impeachment trial don’t you ?
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Not regurgitating anything, don’t care personally for Russian propaganda nor for the idiot that is trump, but can’t see the logic where Joe biden is stating he will push to withhold aid to Ukraine unless they get rid of the said prosecutor…his words more or less and that’s dismissed as propaganda?..
My point being the whole systems of geopolitics stinks and each side is corrupt as hell, but since we are western “democracy” we are the less evil of the two, and basically it’s comical how each day it’s the same old propaganda that divides. The political system we have today is corrupted to the core & trust has simply gone when it comes to the neocons and liberals statements about what is right and what is wrong from their perspective because you can guarantee that somewhere someone is making money …and people in the streets from whatever decisions they make will die because of it
The whole thing with Biden was Russian propaganda. If you were to do a bit of quick research you’d find out it was all nonsense.
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Sorry I don’t mean to drag this on, but can someone explain how this is Russian propaganda please? I see biden explaining what happened in his own words or am I missing something ?
Appreciate the time and patience from people who clear things up in advance 
I think there’s a few demographically relevant pieces to nibble on. I agree, they would be a different proposition but a nibble here and there may not be off the table.
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The whole point of propoganda is people dont think they’ve fallen for it. It doesnt matter whether you think, or claim, that you dont care about Russian propaganda, if you spout it you’ve bought it.
Biden’s message was not a personal one, but stating the position of a whole of government decision on how to handle the issue of corruption in Poroshenko’s government (i.e. not a statement of his own interests on a decision he came to by himself). The issue at hand was the removal of a prosecutor who was NOT treating corruption seriously and so his ousting, that Biden disclosed the US demanded, was something that would have put him and his family in more danger were there any basis to the GOP/Russian smears.
It’s a stupid talking point that only makes sense if you stop the “just asking questions” at the questions bit and ignore the answers (that were public record and given out in the open at the time).
I think it’s a worthwhile debate to have about why we thought we had any right to make such demands of a sovereign nation about aspects of their internal politics (because foreign aid is typically contingent on it aligning with our geopolitical goals). Furthermore, if the acknowledge that our whole position is Ukraine is effectively an anti-russian one, we should factor that into our understanding of how Russia would feel justified in responding. While you have to be careful to not fall into false equivalencies, it is appropriate to consider Russian self interest and how that gives them a very different perspective in what has happened in Ukraine since 2014, and the role we’ve played in it. Furthermore, as I said a few weeks ago, the whole modern concept of NATO is a slap in a face to a modern Russia. We have to acknowledge that keeping them out of it while (breaking promises) and expanding into former Warsaw Pact countries is an act of belligerence that Russia would reasonably feel is an act of aggression. But, even with the most cynical anti-US/anti-CIA perspective, it is a false equivalency to say that using our financial and diplomatic weight to tip the scales towards a, democratic, western-aligned regime in Ukraine in line with the will of “the people” is remotely the same as what Russia has done in response - annexing part of a sovereign nation and continuing to saber rattle over further escalation.
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I think the other thing to appreciate is that as much as I believe the things I’ve said about the Russian attitude towards Ukraine (they do legitimately feel it is inseparable from Russia), it is also just a pawn in the larger game. The concept of a United Europe, NATO, US hegemony…these are all things that Putin wants to blow up and his moves are designed to force those institutions into (in)action to show they are feckless and unable to stand in the way of Russian self-interest in their hemisphere. If he had to choose between achieving that outcome vs expanding the borders he’d happily leave the borders where they are now. That has to understood in terms of calibrating our response. Lots of people have been positioning strategies that let Putin have a moral victory he can go home with, but I cannot imagine the US thinking that is acceptable precisely because it gives Putin what he wants and does weaken the hand of the west.
About the best I can think of is some sort of Karnak type situation where he’s allowed to go home and tell his own people he won while the rest of the world knows he didn’t. What that means in a practical sense though I have no idea.
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Now they will seek to destroy the Ukrainian army:
Putin also said that “current Ukraine” should to an extent be demilitirised. To do so, Russia must destroy its army.
False flag nr. something. I can no longer keep count on the obvious phony escalatory attacks that Russia needs as justification of its invasion (although as we know, that Casus Belli is flimsy at best even if they were not so abhorrently badly made these false flags)
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52-48 is a must.
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Like they needed any
This honestly has me very stressed. Legitimately fearing they could call the season off at this point. We’re going to be robbed of another possible glorious season under Klopp.
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