No, no, no, no, no we don’t need players with that percentage ball loss and who have a chip on their shoulder.
The problem is we legitimately want to compete against City for the title not just hope they have a bad enough year to give us a chance every now and then. We don’t want to be Dortmund v Bayern. We want level pegging. That’s the challenge.
It might be delusional be we did get to that level which required over 90 points, we were there for 2 seasons.
Now this season might have already slipped away before AFCON but we certainly can’t afford to drop many more points and still stand a chance of being in contention towards the end of the season.
We need to be at the very highest standard from game 1 till game 38 and still can fall short because City, with their resources, are just so faultless. Being in a situation were we knew there would be a time this season, a time we have struggled most years under Klopp anyway, when we would have to cope without Salah and Mane we needed a better plan than we have.
Firmino is great but he’s limited to be a central option. Jota is great central and can probably do a job on the left but he’s been disappointing used on the right. Minamino has shown flashes but has had a really anonymous time here really and isn’t quick and direct enough to play like Salah and Mane. Origi scores a high rate of goals but let’s us down in general play mostly.
They’re our senior options before we move CMs forward (none of which can hope to come close to Salah and Mane) or use fresh raw kids like Gordon with 1 senior goal and only 2 senior appearances discounting friendlies.
I was hoping we’d get through the AFCON, it’s hopefully going to be a short absence. But Fowler forbid what if the absence wasn’t the AFCON? How do we cope if a keeper does to Salah what Pickford did to VvD?
The options we have in attack are good in their own ways but lots don’t actually fit what we need. I don’t want to say “not fit for purpose” as that’s too harsh. Just not fit to replicate what our starting wide forwards in 433 bring. 6 senior players should mean being able to bring like for like changes in but pretty much most of our 6 are unique and not similar to each other at all.
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We’ve won 1 game in 6, that was against Shrewsbury, this is a concern that has been around awhile.
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Well let’s agree to disagree on the lad, and hope for the best. 
A 0-0 draw in the first leg of a Carabao Cup tie is not “destroying” anything, and don’t pretend like reviving this thread after that result is about anything else.
Alternatively, I’d love to see all the posts from September about how important it is that we take this cup seriously this season. 
We need to get a collective grip.
Or Klopp doesn’t feel the need to shit his pants at halftime in the first leg of a two-legged cup game where we are in a comfortable position.
Or the professional coaches at the club believe that chopping and changing approach halfway through the season is a good way to look less fluid. FFS, you can’t even get away with that on a computer game anymore.
What’s shitting his pants? Trying to win? Right ok. Hyperbole much. The red card was around 20 minutes in, that midfield and attack had 25minutes of huffing and puffing for the square root of fuck all, my question was why give it another 15mins?
Why are we comfortable? We had zero shots on goal against 10 men, at home in 81 minutes against a really weak Arsenal side. I’d say they are favourites now, home leg to come, their 1st team back etc.
My point was go back to the tactics we used last year, which considering most of the same players are here - Hendo, Trent, Milner, Robbo, Bobby etc. It can’t be that hard to go back to an older tactical set up.
By the way we knew Mane and Salah were going to the AFCON for 6 months, we knew Elliot was injured 5 months ago. We could have been planning a shift back to older tactics for well in advance.
Let’s not start with the computer game insults, its just pathetic. You can disagree fine, but using that? Come on…
Why “can’t” it?
In any walk of life it’s quite possible to re-learn something you used to do regularly, even easier the smaller the gap to when you last did it.
So you agree that it necessitates a period of relearning.
My suggestion is that in the middle of a season, during a schedule that is alternating between packed to the brim and severely disrupted, is perhaps not the best time for players to be relearning/caught between “new” and “old” automatisms.
Of course, my point is we’ve had a lot of time to do such that. You disagree fair enough, no need for FM Type insults no?
The thing is we’d started to evolve the midfield to provide more exactly because it had started to fail and be bypassed by opposition. I don’t see going back to it as successful.
Unfortunately now we are trying to use a midfield that provides a little more whilst not providing them with any more. It’s possible and when Thiago and Fabinho start there’s clear signs it can be not only good but quite dominating.
But what’s happening now due to absences is we are using too many players who were suited to the old set up and not the new. They just can’t replicate it.
Players like Wijnaldum (gone), Henderson, Milner they’re the old midfield, getting left behind for something more progressive.
Fabinho and Thiago are important bridges to help us pass over into the new way of doing it but Elliott, Jones, Keita and even Morton to an extent are all in that new image.
We should never willingly put out a midfield that does not include at least one of Thiago, Keita, Jones, Elliott. In some games we could probably even get away with fielding two if Fabinho is that anchor and he’s fit and in form.
Poor performance last night but not getting too worked up about it.
First game of the Afcon absentees and we didnt gel, nowhere near it…
Its impossible to even attempt to second guess Jurgen, yet I would not be surprised if he didn’t pick the team to face Brentford first and foremost, based on how they play and how he thinks we need to play against them on Sunday… THEN after considering his needs for that match, he picked last nights team.
This is/was to sharpen some up and recover some rhythm ready for the pounding at the weekend. Substitutes/timing of same might also have been him prioritising the weekends game.
Jurgen knows we cannot keep slipping up in the league and falling further behind the Cheaters… 3 points is required and it is crucial we get them… Yes it was a 1st leg semi-final… but do we really know for certain that Jurgen has begun to prioritise this competition above the PL…!
What is and remains disappointing to me, is the OX…
Why the f*** that guy is not tearing up trees for the club, supporters and his own job (well done) satisfaction is way beyond me… the guy has had nothing but full support from most for the duration of his time here…
So if your reading this OX…
for fucks sake take a bit of weight from the shoulders of Jurgen and the fans and put a shift in will ya…!
We need all hands to the pumps or the Cheaters will have the PL wrapped up well before the CL starts to bring pressure to them.!
Anyone know if the stat about Milnerson CM is true? Apparently we’ve only got a 27% win rate when both Henderson and Milner start in CM! If true that’s horrific!
Probably, wonder if there are a lot of draws? The Gini, Hendo, Milner midfield of doom that stuttered through champions league groups was a tough watch.
This highlights what I see when Milner specifically plays, he hugs the touchline which is the wrong place to be, it means pretty much every pass he can make is back to the center back so it’s slow and ponderous sideways football.
It’s ok to be on the touchline if you can pickup the ball and beat a man, Milner at this age simply can’t. So it’s an inside pass or a punt down the line, which mainly means we lose possession.
https://twitter.com/SamMcGuire90/status/1481976211668717578?s=20
https://twitter.com/SamMcGuire90/status/1481977388875632641?s=20
This image posted in the same thread shows how horrible our shape was last night, and the worrying thing is it’s the same shape that failed to beat the 10men of Chelsea.
Milner has no business when playing left midfield against 10men basically sitting where the fullback does, especially when you’ve got Van Dijk who could pass it to where Robbo is positioned.
Trent should have been 10 yards further forward and wider.
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No insult meant, just intended as a tongue-in-cheek observation that even video games these days punish you for chopping and changing your tactical approach.
More seriously, this is why things like full and proper preseasons are so important, not only for player fitness.
And as @AnfieldRdDreamer points out, part of the reason for “evolving” the structure of our midfield/attack is because the coaches think that it was necessary in order to improve. They genuinely might not believe in going back to what we used to do just to navigate a relatively small handful of games.
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We’re a very good team, certainly among the best five or six teams in the world, but we are also an aging team in need of an overhaul.
The fact is that this version of Liverpool (Klopp’s Liverpool) peaked about two years ago (when we were the best in the world). Since that time, we have added Jota, Thiago, Konate, and Tsimikas, with Jones also joining the first team. And while Wijnaldum has been the only significant departure during that time, our squad has aged. Among our regular starting 11, only 3 of our players are clearly not past their peak: Alisson, Trent and Jota. You might stop me here and say, “what about Mo?” Yes, Salah is certainly playing at a ridiculously high level (only matched by his first season at the club), but we would be foolish to expect this kind of form to continue. He’s 29 now, and while he’s likely to be very good for several more seasons, some regression to the mean and decline as he ages should be expected. He will probably be worse when he comes back from Afcon, just because when you are playing as well as he was, the only place to go is down.
Among our bench players, only Konate, Keita (when fit), and Gomez (when fit), have the look of starters for a title winning side. Tsimikas, Jones, Elliot, Gordon, Bradley and Williams have potential, but counting on all of them, or even any of them, to turn into world-class footballers is a bad bet.
Oddly, it’s our defense that’s best positioned for the future. Alisson and Kelleher are likely to be a great 1-2 for many more years. We’ve probably seen the best of Van Dijk and Matip, but Konate (22) and Gomez (24) are young and already close to world class when fit. Trent is the best attacking fullback in the world and just 23. Robertson is almost 28 and a little past his peak, but Tsimikas has the look of a good Premier League player, is just 25, and may improve further.
The midfield and attack, however, while still good, will not be competitive two years for now if we don’t make big changes.
Look at the midfield and forwards and imagine those players two years from now. Fabinho is 28 and has never been fast. Henderson is 31. Thiago is 30 (and injury-prone). Keita is just 26 but can’t stay healthy. Milner is 36, and too slow now to play against strong teams. Jones, Elliot and Gordon may never make it at the level required. Mane (29) and Firmino (30) have lost a step. Ox (28) has only ever shown flashes. Origi and Minamino were never good enough.
The League is lost for this season. To stay competitive in the League (and not become a team that aims only for top 4), we will need a forward and a midfielder this summer and another midfielder and forward next summer (2023). And we have to get these incomings right. They have to come in and hit the ground running like Jota has (or like Mane and Mo did when they came in).
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I’m sorry but to me, Jones does belong in the same sentence with Thiago, Keïta, and Elliott. He has failed to impress me almost every time we run him out.
Different people see different things I guess. I’d already have him as ahead of some of our others. For me that group for more creative centre midfielder in order of priority would be; Thiago, Keita, Elliott, Jones, Ox, Minamino, Henderson. I don’t think there would ever be a situation when I’d consider Fabinho or Morton right for it. Maybe Firmino in extreme emergency situations as long as the rest of our attack are available and in form. I think Trent or Tsimikas moved into midfield whilst Bradley/Williams or Robertson play FB might even appeal more to me than Henderson “bringing the creativity” actually to be honest.
I don’t agree with some of your player evaluations (which is fine), but I think this is a very clear summation of the situation.
I think we can definitely deliver on these needs. 
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