The European Union

[Iftikhar]

On separate but related note, the Irish armed forces is very weak.

[Flobs]

They are neutral so don’t need to defend themselves.

[Bekloppt]

The wars of the future will be fought primarily in cyberspace. That’s where co-operation and mutual support is needed. Neutrality means nothing if a foreign power can shut down your power grid at the flick of a switch.

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

They are neutral so don’t need to defend themselves.

What a trite and nonsensical answer. Our neutrality is compromised by agreement with foreign powers already.
Our right as a nation to defence is the same as any other.

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

@Quicksand

My rationale for Ireland leaving the EU has nothing to do with my argument against a pan European “defence” strategy.

Then why bring it up confusing the issue?

@Quicksand

What or who are we defending against?

Surely it’s about defending our interests. creating a viable balance between Hard and soft power.
Having the capacity to defend our allies so they feel safer.

@Quicksand

how would instituting a military alliance help defend against this?

Europes military strength isn’t sufficient to carry out it’s UN obligations as it is. The step after instigating a common strategy imo is about building something viable that can intervene independantly in ‘near’ situations that crop up. (You do realise what the USA supplied to Afghanistan was greater than what Spain has (and probably in much better working condition)?

Europe is effectively defenseless without the USA even with an alliance!

All of this without answering my question. Who are we defending against?

[Arminius]

Australia's Defence Policy Explained

[Flobs]

@Quicksand

All of this without answering my question.

Because as it stands it’s irrelevant!
It’s about hard power and self determination.
If you want enemies look for them yourself. Who are you against? for example.

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

@Quicksand

All of this without answering my question.

Because as it stands it’s irrelevant!
It’s about hard power and self determination.
If you want enemies look for them yourself. Who are you against? for example.

Seriously?
You are in favour of a pan European defence force. I ask you who we are defending against in particular and you cannot answer?

If the threat is irrelevant then why defend against the threat?

[Flobs]

Put it this way if you can not defend your interests what’s the point of having interests?
Strategic needs change all the time but without being able to defend them you just have needs (which will not be fulfilled).
Having a means of defence is dissausive. If you can not see the interests the EU might have over the mediterannee, English Channel, North sea, Irish sea, North and west Africa, Asie Minor eastern europe … I can not help you!

It isn’t possible to build a defense system to take back what has been taken away.

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

Put it this way if you can not defend your interests what’s the point of having interests?
Strategic needs change all the time but without being able to defend them you just have needs (which will not be fulfilled).
Having a means of defence is dissausive. If you can not see the interests the EU might have over the mediterannee, English Channel, North sea, Irish sea, North and west Africa, Asie Minor eastern europe … I can not help you!

It isn’t possible to build a defense system to take back what has been taken away.

So.
Still no answer then.
The defence forces of every European nation has commitment regarding its own autonomous state.
Defence being the word, Irish Navy patrols Irish water etc.
So…
Please and without the dancing around the question.
Why do we need a pan European ‘defence’ force, and just who is that force concerned with?

[Flobs]

@Quicksand

Why do we need a pan European ‘defence’ force

I’ve outlined some of the reasons before.
1stly to create a more responsible defence strategy, including equipement, supply, expenditure (pool and increase resources and expenditure).
Encourage greater collaboration and coordination on stratey and response. Which in turn will cause the EU to appear stronger and fitter.
Give a major boost to our delapidated industrial capacity.
Encourage innovation.
Goal to be more active and reactive on the international scene with our values and strategies.

[Flobs]

@Quicksand

just who is that force concerned with?

With who it concerns, those that are interested in building for the future in ‘our’ image.

[KeillRandor]

Is it Australia?

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

@Quicksand

Why do we need a pan European ‘defence’ force

I’ve outlined some of the reasons before.
1stly to create a more responsible defence strategy, including equipement, supply, expenditure (pool and increase resources and expenditure).
Encourage greater collaboration and coordination on stratey and response. Which in turn will cause the EU to appear stronger and fitter.
Give a major boost to our delapidated industrial capacity.
Encourage innovation.
Goal to be more active and reactive on the international scene with our values and strategies.

None of those answers actually address the need for a European defence force.
Every country already possesses a defence force of their own.

The alignment of European armies will do the opposite, it will be viewed as a hostile step by world powers.
Unnecessary to be honest.

[Kopstar]

@Flobs

Put it this way if you can not defend your interests what’s the point of having interests?
Strategic needs change all the time but without being able to defend them you just have needs (which will not be fulfilled).

I remember the many arguments on TIA about how the EU was fundamentally a project about the furtherance of peace. And how the EU was responsible for the peace throughout Europe (providing we ignore certain conflicts).

But now it needs an army. One to “defend its interests”. Hmm.

Cockamamie (for those with a fondness for unusual English words )

[Bekloppt]

So everyone who has an army is against peace?

[Flobs]

@Quicksand

None of those answers actually address the need for a European defence force.

I think it does and believe your just playing dump.

@Quicksand

Every country already possesses a defence force of their own.

Correct, so?

More to the point why are you against a European defense strategy?
What do you see as the dangers of that?

[Kopstar]

@Bekloppt

So everyone who has an army is against peace?

How many trade blocs do you know that have an army? Particularly trade blocs whose supporters like to claim that its very formation (as a trade bloc) is what has brought peace.

[Arminius]

Well, these guys, obviously.

[Quicksand]

@Flobs

@Quicksand

None of those answers actually address the need for a European defence force.

I think it does and believe your just playing dump.

@Quicksand

Every country already possesses a defence force of their own.

Correct, so?

More to the point why are you against a European defense strategy?
What do you see as the dangers of that?

Genuinely not playing dumb. You still cannot provide a cogent reason for the proposal.

The dangers of a pan European defence force are myriad.
In Ireland we were not consulted as a nation on joining. Why?
Because we would have voted no.
Our neutrality is damaged. Badly.

There is no need for a trade alliance (as cited by @Kopstar) to engage in military strategy. It makes zero sense. The growing of the United States of Europe impinges on national identity and autonomy. I am not a nationalist, but I am anti Euro army as it has sinister undertones.

Europe does not have s common enemy to fear. You have been asked that half a dozen times and you still cannot answer.
It is a trade agreement. Nothing more. If that is outlived then disband