The Middle East Thread

[Iftikhar]

True. I think that’s when the support should have become conditional. Even moderate sanctions, specially against the settlers and the settlement building industry, would have been a deterrent. Settler population has increased by five folds in the last three decades.

I don’t know the details of the Good Friday Agreement and the Dayton Accord and they are different than the Palestine crisis, but I feel that if The West was determined and dedicated to the Palestine as they were towards NI and B&H there could have been a solution.

[Arminius]

I think it is fair to say that the genuine will to peace has been lacking on both sides for about a generation. Despite Rabin’s assassination, there were still Israeli voices willing to come to the peace table. The second intifada was a reaction by the Palestinian ‘street’ against efforts toward a compromise that punished Palestinian moderates and rewarded extremists - which is more or less the same pattern Israeli politics have followed since, creating an ideal climate for the settler movement.

[Sithbare]

It’s fair to say that the Palestinians ( more so the factions which claim to represent them) haven’t added more weight to the peace process more so when there was a path to a solution quite a while back.

Not nearly enough progress has been done from the Palestinian side as well.

I think that path(2 state solution) is now gone. I’m not sure what the future holds for the Palestinians, all I hope at this point is that they have a future which doesn’t involve them and their homes being bombed into gravel.

I don’t really care at this moment whether there’s a physical state called Palestine being formed. Living in Gaza and getting bombed by Israel in response to Hamas excesses or by Israels own initiatives) isn’t the solution for them anymore.

[Sithbare]

@Arminius

I think it is fair to say that the genuine will to peace has been lacking on both sides for about a generation. Despite Rabin’s assassination, there were still Israeli voices willing to come to the peace table. The second intifada was a reaction by the Palestinian ‘street’ against efforts toward a compromise that punished Palestinian moderates and rewarded extremists - which is more or less the same pattern Israeli politics have followed since, creating an ideal climate for the settler movement.

I think once the moderates on each sides started getting silenced , both Israel and Palestine (as entities) went dangerously to the rightwing extremist route.

With the level of radicalism that is present with a sizable number in both I&P , any country would be foolish to engage with them , even if it means offering refuge/asylum.

[Sithbare]

And the Arab countries calling for a return to 1967 borders is hypocritical when they were the ones who didn’t want that agreement in the first place.

[PaulRoJo]

@Hope.in.your.heart

These people (the extremist settlers and the party representing them) were and still are so obsessed with grabbing land which doesn’t belong to them, that they’ll happily sacrifice as much Palestinians lives as is needed in order to achieve their goal.

Is a fair summary. Fuck them and fuck the IDF.

[Arminius]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1732144928510357739?s=20&fbclid=IwAR08dcc8EnTTrEhwVmYhiNX6goHHFMXf2XP6mUPKiLkGXZFMuHDYBaL5qcI

[Sithbare]

No sympathy for the Hamas cowards.

[RedWhippet]

Well that strikes me as a far more effective approach than blowing up hospitals.

[WeeJoe]

@Sithbare

It’s fair to say that the Palestinians ( more so the factions which claim to represent them) haven’t added more weight to the peace process more so when there was a path to a solution quite a while back.

Not nearly enough progress has been done from the Palestinian side as well.

Palestinians have been occupied and oppressed since 1948. Israel have only every been interested in getting more land, never any genuine interest in peace with equal rights for Arabs.

@Sithbare

I don’t really care at this moment whether there’s a physical state called Palestine being formed.

They don’t care what you think. They want a homeland

[Hope.in.your.heart]

Yeah that is true. But as has already been said, Israel are the immensely stronger part, so they have more responsibility to find a solution imo. Also, when you constantly humiliate and hinder people in their daily life, you shouldn’t be surprised to see them get angry.

At the same time, the West Bank officials have had a much more moderate position than Hamas, and look what has happened there in the last fifteen years or so: land being grabbed, and settlers oppressing and dispossessing people who want nothing else but to quietly go on with their lives.

Also, these Hamas cunts have been funded and supported by Netanyahou. It was his plan to help them staying power. That’s something which shouldn’t be forgotten imo.

A long, bloody war is what Hamas and its Iranian backers – desperate to derail recent moves towards “normalisation” of relations between Israel and several of its neighbours, most crucially Saudi Arabia – yearn for. It will mean that, even if the infrastructure of Hamas is destroyed, the hatred that powers it will not be: on the contrary, it will grow in the hearts of a new, bereaved generation of Palestinians. Not for nothing did the scholar Hussein Ibish write this week: “In trying to fulfil the pledge to ‘eliminate Hamas’, Israel could well deliver everything Hamas is counting on.”

That notion might seem counterintuitive and yet, when it comes to Netanyahu himself, it is unexpectedly on-brand. Prime minister for most of the last 15 years, Netanyahu has been an enabler of Hamas, building up the organisation, letting it rule Gaza unhindered – save for brief, periodic military operations against it – and allowing funds from its Gulf patrons to keep it flush. Netanyahu liked the idea of the Palestinians as a house divided – Fatah in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza – because it allowed him to insist that there was no Palestinian partner he could do business with. That meant no peace process, no prospect of a Palestinian state, and no demand for Israeli territorial concessions.

None of this was a secret. In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

Warning: Benjamin Netanyahu is walking right into Hamas’s trap | Jonathan...

[Iftikhar]

‘They Came in the Dark’: Settler Violence Intensifies in the West Bank

and people expect entities like Hamas will just wither away

[cynicaloldgit]

Exactly. Israel’s stated aim of eliminating Hamas is just impossible to achieve. If anything, their actions are strengthening the terrorists’ resolve and acting as a recruitment drive.

[Sithbare]

@WeeJoe

They don’t care what you think. They want a homeland

They aren’t getting it. Surely pragmatism works.

[WeeJoe]

@Sithbare

They aren’t getting it. Surely pragmatism works.

You can’t be pragmatic with people who deny your right to exist. I’ve spent time with incredible peacemakers in the West Bank, who refuse to hate despite decades of discrimination, violence and oppression. They have been beaten almost to death, had buildings and olive trees bulldozed constantly. Not allowed build (even a well) on land they have owned since the Ottoman Empire. They have studied and teach nonviolent resistance. And everything keeps getting worse

[Iftikhar]

@Sithbare

@WeeJoe

They don’t care what you think. They want a homeland

They aren’t getting it. Surely pragmatism works.

What would that pragmatism be! Accepting apartheid/colonization! Surely, pragmatism can’t be that dark.

[Sithbare]

@Iftikhar

What would that pragmatism be! Accepting apartheid/colonization! Surely, pragmatism can’t be that dark.

It’s better than what’s being done in Gaza now. It’s not meant to be fair. What hope do these Palestinians have for any life with the current status quo ?

[Sithbare]

@WeeJoe

You can’t be pragmatic with people who deny your right to exist. I’ve spent time with incredible peacemakers in the West Bank, who refuse to hate despite decades of discrimination, violence and oppression. They have been beaten almost to death, had buildings and olive trees bulldozed constantly. Not allowed build (even a well) on land they have owned since the Ottoman Empire. They have studied and teach nonviolent resistance. And everything keeps getting worse

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. It’s just that I feel there’s no point in expecting a regime like Israel to do the right thing.

[Iftikhar]

@Sithbare

@WeeJoe

You can’t be pragmatic with people who deny your right to exist. I’ve spent time with incredible peacemakers in the West Bank, who refuse to hate despite decades of discrimination, violence and oppression. They have been beaten almost to death, had buildings and olive trees bulldozed constantly. Not allowed build (even a well) on land they have owned since the Ottoman Empire. They have studied and teach nonviolent resistance. And everything keeps getting worse

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. It’s just that I feel there’s no point in expecting a regime like Israel to do the right thing.

Then, surely it’s the Israelis who has to be pragmatic and break this cycle of oppressions and violence!

[koptician]

@Sithbare

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. It’s just that I feel there’s no point in expecting a regime like Israel to do the right thing.

You’re basically putting the entire onus on the victims and giving carte blanche to the oppressors with that statement.