The Middle East Thread

[Sithbare]

@Iftikhar

Despite Israel’s record of atrocities against the Palestinians, only a fraction of the Israelis are fascists. Despite widespread support for terrorist activities, only a fraction of the Palestinians are fanatics. So, the situation is impossible but not hopeless.

As long as they (can be Israelis or Palestinians) are not heard when the respective establishments (Israel and Hamas) does things using them and in their names. They might not be liking how the situation is , but they are not really coming to the streets to protest either. Atleast the Israelis aren’t. I suppose there is a fear of getting arrested etc though.

But if enough people aren’t there in the streets making their noises heard, the Israeli citizens are guilty of standing by and letting the atrocities happen.

What I mean to say is that you are right when you say a fraction of Israelis are fascists, but what’s the fraction ? 1/3 of the Israelis being fascist in their support for Bibi(and similar right wing politicians) is a rather huge number. Is that reasonable enough to assume ?

As long as Israelis persist in choosing Netanyahu and leaders of his Ilk , there can be no coming back as once fascism sets in, it takes a huge upheaval to get that out. And people will continue to be increasingly disappointed when Israel goes to such extremes that there’s no turning back from

Same goes with Palestinians and fanatics , as long as Palestinians do not speak out against Hamas and Fatah , they are going to be increasingly left out of any discussions which happen. And yes , I’m aware that there will be the fear of reprisals by the Hamas if Gaza citizens speak against them. But it’s as equally important for the Gazans/Palestinians to disown the acts of Hamas as it is for Israelis to disown the acts of their govt. How many Palestinians have disowned the initial terrorist acts ?

Also Hamas is the only govt atleast 50-60% of Gazans(given the average age) know , they might not be part of Hamas but there would be a sizable chunk who are fanatics ? I hope I’m wrong in this though, but if a sizable amount of Gaza citizens are radicalised enough (i.e believe in the principles of IS for example) , then that’s something where there can be no coming back from and your belief in the general good nature of people gets shaken.

[Sithbare]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

3 out of 4 Palestinians feel that the actions of Hamas
in October 7th are justified. That’s a shocking number.

[peterroberts]

Any optimism I still harboured of either a two state or one state solution , or some other agreed land share political solution , has all but evaporated since Oct 7. An already near hopeless situation has been made worse by the barabarity of Hamas’ attack and the totally foreseeable brutality of the Israeli response.

I posted an NYT article a couple of days ago (which I got the impression that many people here weren’t willing to consider , in light of what we’re witnessing now in Gaza) about the traumatic effect that Oct 7 has had on the Israeli psyche and how it does not bode well for any future rapprochement with the Palestinians. I recommend anyone who hasn’t done so to go back and read it and see just what Hamas’ actions have done to those leftist Israelis who were once the Palestinians last best hope.

"In an instant on Oct. 7, Israelis of all stripes found common cause in what they saw as an existential fight for Israel’s future. Since then, they have been collectively stung by international criticism of Israel’s retaliation in Gaza.

Recent polling data paint a picture of a society in profound flux since the Hamas attack.

Nearly 30 percent of the ultra-Orthodox public now supports the idea of military service, 20 points higher than before the war, according to a December poll by the Haredi Institute for Public Affairs, a Jerusalem-based research group.

Perhaps surprisingly, 70 percent of Arab Israelis now say they feel part of the state of Israel, according to a November poll by the Israel Democracy Institute, a Jerusalem-based research group. That is 22 points higher than in June and the highest proportion since the group began polling on the question two decades ago.

Roughly a third of voters for Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing party, Likud, have abandoned the party since Oct. 7, according to every national poll since the attack.

“Something fundamental has changed here, and we don’t know what it is yet,” said Yossi Klein Halevi, an author and fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute, a research group in Jerusalem. “What we do know is that this is kind of a last chance for this country.”

Personally I think the attack and the war has set the Palestinian cause back for another generation at least. I foresee only the virtual destruction of most of Gaza (without Hamas ever being defeated) and an ensuing and probably permanent partial Israeli military occupation. I see a West Bank that will be more heavily policed and terrorised by settlers , sporadic violence and acts of terrorism and more and more Palestinians drawn to the Islamists because they will have no-one else to turn to. It’s simply bleak beyond belief.

[WeeJoe]

@Sithbare

Children who are taught that hatred by adults. Hatred doesn’t breed overnight

Or perhaps it’s because anyone under 15 in Gaza has faced 4 bombardments in their lifetime. Been imprisoned for their entire lives. Possibly seen parents, siblings, friends murdered. Been denied any hope of making a better future for themselves

[ISMF]

@Sithbare

Same goes with Palestinians and fanatics , as long as Palestinians do not speak out against Hamas and Fatah , they are going to be increasingly left out of any discussions which happen. And yes , I’m aware that there will be the fear of reprisals by the Hamas if Gaza citizens speak against them. But it’s as equally important for the Gazans/Palestinians to disown the acts of Hamas as it is for Israelis to disown the acts of their govt. How many Palestinians have disowned the initial terrorist acts ?

Helps when Israel does not specially target left-wing secular progressives.

https://x.com/jadaliyya/status/1739691408095633490?s=46&t=wYI1UQq4Zm7qgLRSA8YMdw

[Sithbare]

@WeeJoe

Or perhaps it’s because anyone under 15 in Gaza has faced 4 bombardments in their lifetime. Been imprisoned for their entire lives. Possibly seen parents, siblings, friends murdered. Been denied any hope of making a better future for themselves

Agreed. But the point is that there’s hatred.

[WeeJoe]

No, your point was they are taught to hate by their parents, which ignores the elephant/Mk82s in the room

[Sithbare]

@WeeJoe

No, your point was they are taught to hate by their parents, which ignores the elephant/Mk82s in the room

Israel’s actions have the defining role to play as to why Palestinians hate them. And that hatred is passed down through generations.

I’m nowhere ignoring the culpability of Israel in all this. Just stating that at this point of time , the threat of Gaza citizens being radicalised (if they haven’t already) is very very real. We all know what lead to them being radicalised. What’s the steps needed to contain that elements ?

[Sithbare]

Are we going to come to a position of discussing why’s right now ?

There’s a clear and existent threat of terrorism from Hamas and the radicalization of people there. At what point do people begin to address that ?

[tesh]

@Sithbare

Israel’s actions have the defining role to play as to why Palestinians hate them. And that hatred is passed down through generations.

My parents spent a large part of the younger lives in the shadow (and fears) of war with a neighbouring country. When the sirens went off the women and girls had to flee to hidden underground shelters for fear of rape and the men to their assigned defence protocols. Yes they still have a visceral resentment for the neighbouring country, and their religion to boot, but my generation is largely untainted and have moved on. Admittedly an anecdotal story but this is not a singular event/process. People can move on given the opportunity to do so.

[peterroberts]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-report-deplores-rapid-deterioration-rights-west-bank-2023-12-28/?taid=658d4aa9e543560001767a66&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[Bekloppt]

What on earth would make Gazans not radicalised? How do you suffer all they have and still be open to dialogue with the enemy? How do you watch your country, neighbourhood, family, bombed to hell and still not hate the bombers?

What the fuck do you expect?

[Redbj]

people get fixated on how we stop the hatred.

which misses the point.

the first thing you need to stop is the violence…the hatred can roll on for a generation or so, once the violence stops, you create a scenario where hatred can dissapate.

so people shouldnt be asking how we can stop isrealis and gazans to stop hating each other, that is short term impossible, we need to ask how they can stop the violence.

[Sithbare]

@Redbj

the first thing you need to stop is the violence…the hatred can roll on for a generation or so, once the violence stops, you create a scenario where hatred can dissapate.

Yeah , goes without saying. The violence needs to stop first and foremost.

[WeeJoe]

@Sithbare

the threat of Gaza citizens being radicalised (if they haven’t already) is very very real.

‘Radicalised’ is a word used post 9/11 so US/UK can view Arabs/Muslims as different to everyone else. Reality is if Israel had been imprisoning us and every few years blowing up our houses and slaughtering our families and friends…most of us would hate them and join a resistance

[Iftikhar]

@Redbj

people get fixated on how we stop the hatred.

which misses the point.

the first thing you need to stop is the violence…the hatred can roll on for a generation or so, once the violence stops, you create a scenario where hatred can dissapate.

so people shouldnt be asking how we can stop isrealis and gazans to stop hating each other, that is short term impossible, we need to ask how they can stop the violence.

Totally agree, the violence must stop. There are instances where violence were brought to an end even when there were high level of distrust and hatred between the opposing communities. The resulting lull then worked in soothing the anger and hatred which were fueling the violence.

@tesh

My parents spent a large part of the younger lives in the shadow (and fears) of war with a neighbouring country. When the sirens went off the women and girls had to flee to hidden underground shelters for fear of rape and the men to their assigned defence protocols. Yes they still have a visceral resentment for the neighbouring country, and their religion to boot, but my generation is largely untainted and have moved on. Admittedly an anecdotal story but this is not a singular event/process. People can move on given the opportunity to do so.

People will move on if they get the opportunity to do so, if they can get some sort of a closure. Our relation with Pakistan during 1947-71 wasn’t too different than that of Israel and Palestine . But we have moved on. We aren’t exactly chummy with Pakistan, but today we feel pity than hatred towards them.

[Sithbare]

@Iftikhar

We aren’t exactly chummy with Pakistan, but today we feel pity than hatred towards them.

Not surprising considering its Pakistan ,

But snide digs aside , I guess time does heal wounds.

Just not sure whether this would be in this case.

[Semmy]

Rodney King Can We All Get Along.mp4

[Iftikhar]

Time helps, but that wasn’t the cure. The fact that they couldn’t hurt us anymore helped us get past the old wounds.

[Hope.in.your.heart]

@Sithbare

There’s a clear and existent threat of terrorism from Hamas and the radicalization of people there. At what point do people begin to address that ?

First step: stop to bomb the living sh*t out of them. But Netanyahou won’t have that, because he’s a grade-A terrorist himself. Hamas will always applaud him for this, as it allows them to keep the population under their rule.

Hamas and Netanyahou are the two faces of the same medal. As long as this isn’t clearly understood by everyone, things will just go round and round.