The Middle East Thread

[Noo_Noo]

@Sithbare

I think the intent is to render Gaza inhabitable forcing mass exodus

Speechless.

[Sithbare]

Israel wouldn’t have gone in to this extent if they weren’t confident on the resumption of talks with SA later.

No Arab countries want the Palestine problem, so it’s crocodile tears being shed which are swiftly washed away when the figures on revenue come in.

[Sithbare]

@Noo_Noo

Check these articles out.

[Iftikhar]

@Nobluff

It breaks my heart that there are so many supposedly educated students (talking prestigious USA universities) that think Israel are 100% responsible for the attack on themselves. I know it’s not the majority of students, and only these stupid groups that seem to do no use other than spew hate. And you can add some professors to that list. Just so sad.

Here’s how I assign blame/responsibility to various parties

1. Israel: Their incremental colonization of West Bank over the last three decades along with abuses and discrimination of the Arabs/Palestinians eroded whatever goodwill they could claim.

2. PA/PLO/Fatah: Them acting as a client state, submitting themselves to Israel and Western whims, and total reluctance to protect the Palestinians in West Bank not only allowed Israel to continue the colonization with impunity, but it also created a vacuum in Palestine leadership.

3. Arab/World leadership: They not only played the spectator as Israel colonized the West Bank and carried out other abuses & atrocities, there was clear approval for such activities.

If those three things didn’t happen, over a period of three decades, there wouldn’t have been any space for Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad.

Those three things created a hell for the Palestinians, for three decades, and demons came out of it. As I have said in a previous post, Israel can try to eradicate Hamas, but as long as the hell remains, some other demon will come out it.

[peterroberts]

I don’t think anyone should be surprised by that. It was their intention since they left Gaza in 2005. It’s also the same policy that is being prosecuted in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

[peterroberts]

That’s pretty close to a perfect distillation of the causes of the conflict and the hell that we’ve arrived at today.

Chapeau !

[Sithbare]

@Iftikhar

Arab/World leadership: They not only played the spectator as Israel colonized the West Bank and carried out other abuses & atrocities, there was clear approval for such activities.

Plus when Israel was ready for the two nation theory , they persuaded / threatened Palestinians to not go in for that. This was 1948

[redalways]

@Nobluff

that they should have immediately turned the cheek after the attack, and gone straight to the negotiating table.

That is genuinely one of the worst takes I’ve read on this whole issue.

Do you honestly, sincerely, believe Israel is innocent in this?

[Sithbare]

If the other Arab countries had not intervened, I do believe that grown ups in both Israel and Palestine would have gotten through a deal eventually.

But they had to intervene , do a military action and degrade situations further and then wash themselves off of the Palestinians.

[Klopptimist]

Biblical?

[peterroberts]

@Sithbare

Israel wouldn’t have gone in to this extent if they weren’t confident on the resumption of talks with SA later.

It’s too early to know just how this might pan out. But the longer it goes on , and the greater the atrocities that Israel are bound to commit , the less feasible it becomes.

[Sithbare]

@peterroberts

It’s too early to know just how this might pan out. But the longer it goes on , and the greater the atrocities that Israel are bound to commit , the less feasible it becomes.

Nope. It’s MBS. The deal will get passed sooner or later.

[Iftikhar]

@Sithbare

@peterroberts

It’s too early to know just how this might pan out. But the longer it goes on , and the greater the atrocities that Israel are bound to commit , the less feasible it becomes.

Nope. It’s MBS. The deal will get passed sooner or later.

It’s not that MBS care about the atrocities Israel has committed and will commit over the course of the war. But as long as it’s raw in the minds of the people, he will have to consider the inflammable nature of his own Wahabi cults. He will wait for things to cool down. specially since there’s no loss in waiting a bit more.

[Sithbare]

@Iftikhar

Here’s how I assign blame/responsibility to various parties

1. Israel: Their incremental colonization of West Bank over the last three decades along with abuses and discrimination of the Arabs/Palestinians eroded whatever goodwill they could claim.
2. PA/PLO/Fatah: Them acting as a client state, submitting themselves to Israel and Western whims, and total reluctance to protect the Palestinians in West Bank not only allowed Israel to continue the colonization with impunity, but it also created a vacuum in Palestine leadership.
3. Arab/World leadership: They not only played the spectator as Israel colonized the West Bank and carried out other abuses & atrocities, there was clear approval for such activities.

As mentioned before , the Arab leadership is playing the role of spectators now. They started the 1967 6 nation war with Israel and having lost the war , left Palestinians high and dry.

Also they hijacked the discourse and not allowing Palestinians to make further progress on peace talks by themselves.

As both the Arab countries and Israel are/were allies of the US. The common business alignments served as a means to resolve any conflicts. Slowly the Arab countries (with the exception of Qatar (itself a sort of a pariah state) started to ignore the Palestinians altogether.

The peace between Israel and the Arab countries wasn’t achieved in oneday. It was a continuous movement starting with Israel normalising relationships with Jordan, Egypt. Lebanon and Syria having their own internal problems only served to better the Israeli prospects.

Then UAE , Bahrain following suit and finally now Saudi on the verge of completing the formalities.

This continued discourse between Israel and the Arab countries and the mutually beneficial trade which folllowed further reinforced in the Arab leaders minds that Palestinians are dispensable and any further funding of them (by this time, the Palestinian leaderships in Fatah had proven to be highly corrupt and unreliable) was a sunk investment.

Also , Israel (apart from the areas it contended was their own) has not shown any territorial ambitions like what Saddam had shown (hence wasn’t a threat to the sovereignty of the individual Arab countries).

[Nobluff]

@Bekloppt

@Nobluff

I think it’s evidently clear that Hamas has targeted 99% non combatants, unless I am missing something here.

But that doesn’t make it alright for Israel to do the same. Hamas are criminal terrorists, but we are led to believe that Israel is a civilised country.
If you condemn the indiscriminate murder of civilians you can’t then do the same thing.

Yes both horrible, yet it seems we will not agree on the word indiscriminate.

[Nobluff]

@redalways

@Nobluff

that they should have immediately turned the cheek after the attack, and gone straight to the negotiating table.

That is genuinely one of the worst takes I’ve read on this whole issue.

Do you honestly, sincerely, believe Israel is innocent in this?

I don’t think there is any innocence over the entire history of the conflict, I just think what Hamas did in the past week goes beyond what any rational person would think is acceptable in order to ultimately help the people of gaza. As far as I am aware, Hamas dont want an Israel, so maybe genuine Hamas supporters do feel it’s ok.

[cynicaloldgit]

@Nobluff

I just think what Hamas did in the past week goes beyond what any rational person would think is acceptable

And I don’t think anyone here disagrees with you.

But it is inexcusable for the Israeli government to retaliate by actively targeting civilians.

[Nobluff]

@cynicaloldgit

@Nobluff

I just think what Hamas did in the past week goes beyond what any rational person would think is acceptable

And I don’t think anyone here disagrees with you.

But it is inexcusable for the Israeli government to retaliate by actively targeting civilians.

I’m never going to agree with you that they are actively targeting civilians. Yes I know there are civilian deaths, yes they do know beforehand that there will be civilian deaths, yet I completely disagree that they are actively targeting.

[redalways]

@Nobluff

As far as I am aware, Hamas dont want an Israel, so maybe genuine Hamas supporters do feel it’s ok.

Frankly, I just want to lock those Palestinians who don’t want Israel to exist, and those Israelis who don’t want Palestine to exist, in a room together so they can just fist-fight it to the death while everyone else gets on with living together.

But one cannot ignore the very strong evidence of the Israeli government’s hand in directly supporting Hamas on the one hand, and supporting the conditions for Hamas to thrive on the other. Nor can one ignore that many Israelis did not vote for this government, nor the preceding governments who decided on that policy.

Nor can one ignore that many Palestinians did not choose this situation either.

All this death and tragedy just so a few selfish egotistical twats on both sides can satisfy their corruption and stay in power, stay relevant.

[cynicaloldgit]

@Nobluff

I’m never going to agree with you that they are actively targeting civilians.

Then I’m afraid to say that you are ignoring the facts. If cutting off the electricity, water and food supplies, asking Palestinians to leave the area and then bombing the main road out, don’t constitute “actively targeting civilians”, I’d love to know what does.