No, my little anecdote wasn’t meant to prove the NHS was better under the Tories, as you well know. I think that was quite clear. But if I’d been surveyed I’d have given it top marks, which would skew any ‘customer satisfaction’ figures even though I’d have known the NHS was on it’s arse with millions on waiting lists. So it doesn’t ‘trump all the data, facts, evidence etc’.
Anyway, my initial argument wasn’t solely regarding the NHS. I’m willing to accept it is in better hands under Labour but if you think it’s ever been some sort of well oiled machine under any Labour government in the past 50 years you’re kidding yourself. And that was my wider point, virtually everything has been in terminal decline for decades.
I agree with this. Some of it has been brushed under the carpet and so on. There’s just been an enormous under investment in practically everything you can think of. And the downward spiral effect of this is what we are partially facing now.
I can feel a pothole discussion coming..
4 Likes
And we are bankrupt for over spending on out of control welfare and public sector pensions etc and an NHS built for a different century.
We need a rewrite, rethink - same old models will not work today. Whether it’s left, right or centre they all need to come together to design a new UK.
2 Likes
I’m not sure they fully understand what the problems are, which is kind of criminal but its where we are. I believe we simply stopped investing in ourselves as a nation. Increasingly we are doing the bare minimum to keep our heads above water but we’ve run out of headspace.
Previously, there was a feedback loop where more balanced tax rules fed the government plenty of funds that were reinvested back into uk in the form of infrastructure, services and so on. That loop is currently broken, in more than one spot. Lots of reasons why on that I guess. I believe thats what needs fixing but that isnt going to happen in the current atmosphere as described above.
I’m stuck on ideas to be honest but there are countries we could aspire to be like. But many wont like that idea even though they would like everything the governments of those countries are able to provide.
1 Like
In which decade were things ideal? You seem to be pointing to the pre-Thatcher era, where the UK economy was in sustained malaise and the standards of social services were simply far lower than they would become. Perhaps the 1960s? Inflation and unemployment were largely well-managed, growth was reasonably good - which I guess is true for the latter part of the 50s as well.
2 Likes
Labour could start by actually presenting the ‘evidence and facts’- on immigration, Gaza, inequality etc.
Instead they just acquiesce to (or agree with) the far right, repeating their misinformation which empowers them and helps make their lies seem true
1 Like
It’s not discourse to change the country - from anyone. It’s about winning the next election.
I don’t want to really take part in this discussion, but still, about this: statistics and proven facts resulting from serious scientific studies are crucial in order to keep a functioning democracy. Bin or distort them (that’s what populists like Trump or Farage do), and you’ll be lost in a sea of diverging opinions. There won’t be any truth left, nor any common ground, and society will cease to exist as a coherent structure.
That’s opening the door for hell on earth.
5 Likes
I think that’s what we have now, and have had for some time. It’s a matter of degree, but it gets worse and worse.
3 Likes
We are honestly not far off that.
2 Likes
It’s a matter of degree however, as redoverthewater says. Within democracies, you still have in part these guidelines for governments (it depends which ones). But it’s a major problem that an increasing number of people don’t trust these guidelines anymore. That opens the door for all kinds of populists / liars as we can see, unfortunately so.
“Here lies Earth. Ultimately it ment fuck all”
Seems a fair warning to any alien vistitors in the future.
1 Like
You’ve got a whole raft of the population that dont think the law works anymore and needs to be scrapped and changed. They say this without an ounce of understanding on what the law says and the process that is laid out within it.
It is utter madness but it is how far populists in particular have twisted things.
3 Likes
this is spot on…
everyone schooling till thgere mid twenties and remaining in debt for an extended period after…they come out with a peice of paper, that, well, everyong else has now as well…
supply and demand dictates they are stuck in a wage rut.
monetised education is very very dangerous…
2 Likes
This graph was posted earlier on to prove that crime had dropped by 75% since 1995. Now, when you’ve stopped laughing at the sheer absurdity of that figure, consider this. Those figures are for ‘reported offences’. It is common knowledge these days that people just don’t bother reporting crimes to the police because they know full well nobody is going to respond. Crimes like shoplifting and mobile phone theft are through the roof but they are barely considered a crime right now. Been burgled? Had your car nicked? Good luck getting a copper to come out for that.
Like I said earlier, graphs aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. Anyone who thinks crime has dropped by 75% in this country in the last 30 years is living in cloud-cuckoo-land.
https://x.com/zackpolanski/status/1963144476177973674?s=46&t=Tk6buFVfyHeITdfFRWCVMg
Don’t know anything about the new Green Party leader but the tweet he’s responding to shows the depths that the Labour Party have fallen to.
People can deflect to the 14 years of Tory carnage but I really don’t see much difference in the first year of Starmer’s Labour Party
2 Likes
The figures are for the Crime Survey for England and Wales, and not police figures. The survey was set up specifically because of under-reporting of crime figures. You can find the whole report on the ONS if you are interested.
4 Likes
I find the ONS to be a very valuable tool when trying to understand some reality behind the spin. Was particularly useful when trying to get my head round the figures of near a million net migration a few years back. (Un) Surprisingly (given the common narrative) it wasn’t due to a relative increase in boat journeys across the channel, but mostly due to foreign students bringing their families with them and then not leaving after their studies.
3 Likes
All graphs are shit. He’s done an eye test and one of his mates got burgled, and that’s better.
2 Likes
It’s the narrative and attempts to be holier than thou and denigrate mistakes from anyone that also makes a mess. Both from politicians and press. It stifles debate. We are right - you are wrong.
Take Angela Rayner. Now I really do not like her but what did she do wrong? She tried to minimise her tax bill - as anyone would. Okay we cannot all buy 3 properties! She made a mistake in the end.
What will end her is her previous holier than thou attempt to say the rich avoid tax etc and working people pay their share. So it’s hypocrisy.