UK Politics Thread (Part 4)

Weren’t working men’s clubs much harsher than that for much of the 70’s/ 80’s? I thought owning your own club was more a status/ earning thing?

I might be misremembering but many years ago reading a book by Oliver Double on the history of Stand Up comedy in the UK and much of it talked about how those clubs would be full of men and an expectation on what comedy would be acceptable - I think it said that comedians such as Charlie Williams often had to tell racist jokes if they wanted to be invited back.

It possibly depended on the club. Men only ones might have been more like that, but the ones with families in wouldn’t have allowed anything that would have been unsuitable for pre-watershed TV.

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Are you a wrestling fan, dude?

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Evening, it is a long post and I will read through it when I can.
Its not about me being bothered to look into it myself, I shouldn’t have to search and provide evidence to support your point, nor can I engage in discussion if all I have is a loose reference to white and green papers, with no substance.

I appreciate your input, and respect you for engaging.

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Trying to keep this short, so I have not quoted.

So to clarify I am not against lifting the restrictions on the 2 child cap.
I have never said that and I have never said we shouldn’t be paying many of them benefits.

I do not need to show considerations or provide workings because I am not opposing it.

Is it sympathising to consider other people’s views/concerns? I can appreciate other people’s concerns in this case @londonrich and I can also express my concerns, that does not mean I oppose it. The cap is being lifted so they are no longer losing out as you put it. So it is irrelevant surely.
So do you believe it should be expected for the State to provide benefit for people having children when they don’t have the means to provide for them. I don’t, nor do I believe it should be expected for people who cannot be bothered to work to expect the state to provide.

Am I the only one who steps into responses? If I do step in it is with the intent on being constructive whether agreeing or challenging the post. Not a moronic response like some other posters.

Will address the other points you have raised tomorrow :+1:t2:.

It’s so sad to see many people, here and elsewhere, fall for the bullshit that we have to choose between looking after children or pensioners. We could do both if mega rich bastards paid their taxes.

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We culd also do both if we didn’t have a political system where every government wants you to have as little as possible.

No one has asked you to provide evidence to support my point. You don’t appear to have done anything to validate your own position, let alone read even the executive summary of the white paper in the link I provided before you dismissed it.

It’s not the stepping into the conversation that is the issue - its ignoring or misrepresenting the context around that initial conversation.

Yes, firstly because your scenario accounts for a relatively small proportion of those on benefits and secondly (but no less important), it is a better choice than the alternatives and is supported by the research in this space.

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Fair play to the calm response on this, and other points raised. This particular paragraph is pretty special.

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The TAN Award for Saint Of The Year goes to…

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I humbly accept this accolade.

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That is very nice of you to say.

So to validate my own position referencing the no plan…

Scrap PIP, backlash amongst peers so back track.

Snippet from the article:

The government was adamant that its “welfare reform” changes - announced in March’s Green Paper - were designed to get people back to work.

The bulk of planned savings came from tightening the eligibility for Personal Independence Payments (Pip), which are paid to support people who face extra costs due to disability, regardless of whether or not they are in work.

Note references a “Green Paper”

From the article:

Labour had “in the end” made the right decision, the committee said in a report. But it reiterated calls for the remaining planned cuts to universal credit to be delayed until their impact on poverty, health and jobs were fully understood.

Ministers been left badly bruised by the enforced gutting of its bill, which was intended to save £5bn a year by the end of the decade. Keir Starmer, the prime minister, admitted subsequently that No 10 “didn’t get the process right”.

So am I right to think that the initial “plan” which was back tracked on, was an ill educated plan?

Regarding the Employees rights bill:

From the article:

Labour had planned to abolish this qualifying period completely, alongside introducing a new legal probation period, likely to have been nine months.

The promise was a central pledge in Labour’s manifesto ahead of last year’s general election, and a key plank of its Employment Rights Bill.

Labour pledged to create “basic rights from day one to parental leave, sick pay, and protection from unfair dismissal”.

Cuts to the Public Services:

Lack of planning has hit Labour’s efforts to fix public services, says thinktank | Public services policy | The Guardian.

Article based on Institute for Government (IfG) report:

The annual report provides a damaging overview of an occasionally chaotic first year in government for Labour, during which the party and Starmer have slumped in the polls.

Nick Davies, a programme director at the IfG and one of the authors of the report, said: “Starmer went into government with a set of missions, but no clear idea about how to achieve them or how those targets fit together in any meaningful way.

“He has not been properly engaged with this process. In opposition he should have been the one to say: ‘This is my view of what public sector reform looks like’, whether that’s on devolution, or the health service, or anything else.

“But there has been a void at the heart of government when it comes to public services.”

In the report, Davies adds: “Starmer must urgently get a grip if Labour is to enter the next election having delivered tangible improvements to the services upon which the public depends.”

The scrapping of the Two child benefit:
This was a move to pacify unrest and appease back benchers. As I mentioned in another post, there were a small number of MP’s who had the whip removed for opposing the Governments policy on the Cap.
Starmer’s recent stance was to scrap it when Fiscal Policy allows. Well, they haven’t got any better and the scrapping is commonly seen as a change of Fiscal Policy.
I believe Reform, Lib Dem and the Greens have committed to scrapping the policy.
This is not a plan it is a reaction.

The lead up to the recent budget, ermmm we may have to break our manifesto pledge on increasing Taxes, the only Government since the 70’s. To, oh it’s okay, thankfully we got better results than anticipated so we will just tax you in other areas to the tune of £20bn+.

In regards to your links in support of “having a plan”.

I have read the White Paper - Getting Britain Working - and it is just an assessment, a suggestion of what the Government wants to do. It suggests a £45m investment in the Trailblazing Scheme, but it’s all rather generic. It is not a plan.

If you are so assured in this White Paper explain/ educate me as to what I am missing.
The White Paper to me this is just another assessment/review that all Parties do to show observations of the current issues, stating what they would like to do with very little to support the means in which they are going to achieve this.

The other links, pretty much refer to the same point. Infact, the Hansard link provides little to no support to your point. All it does, is highlight the fact that this initiative is selective upon areas, so not nationwide and is not expanded to Scotland.

The £820m commitment:

The Chancellor has announced £820m of funding to guarantee paid work placements for 18 to 21-year-olds “not earning or learning” for over 18 months.

So, this £820m commitment is over 3 years so approx £270m a year.

From your BBC link:
Reeves said no companies had signed up to the scheme yet as it has not been formally announced, but added that several business organisations had come out in support.

Sorry, no companies had signed upto the scheme but “several”, I will repeat that “Several” organisations have come out in support.

Well fuck me, that sounds like a plan. So reassuring.
Just to clarify, this policy is only available to you if you have completed 18months of no employment or education - so 18 months of claiming Universal Credit.
The Government have no companies signed up to the scheme but yet it proposes to create 55,000 jobs!!!
And yet you use this as evidence to support your notion of the current Government having a plan….

This is not a plan. It an appeaser!
Answer me honestly, if the Tories came out with this would you buy it??? No, you would question it like I am doing.

Well that’s a change from your initial observation. I guess you are also referring to yourself when you mention “ignoring or misrepresenting the context around that initial conversation”.

As I have stated, I respect your interaction and views in this discussion. I also appreciate that you provide substance to support your points. However, please do not try to devalue my input on the basis of ignoring or misrepresenting the context around that initial conversation.
We are all guilty of this, this includes you. Only a few posts a go you were stating I was against the lifting of the 2 child benefit Cap, which surprisingly you have failed to quote me on, even after I asked you too….

@redfanman In order to stop wasting our time and energy going round in circles, I will try and clarify my position.

I am not against benefits, or of the lifting of the 2 child cap benefit. One of the things I find admiral about the UK is its Welfare. Is it perfect, no! Is it abused, Yes! But that is a low percentage.
Are people allowed to be sceptical of the benefits system and how it is processed….yes!!

The Welfare system…are Pensioners the biggest cost, yes. I have never disputed this only pulled up another poster’s inaccurate figures.
Are the figures completely reflective, taking into Pension contributions, Pension Tax? Who knows. Looking at the OBR forecast, welfare expenditure is going to be accelerating faster in other areas over the next 5 years.

I have no problem with the State (with assistance from our taxes) helping out people who are less well off, but it should not be expected. The Welfare bill will continuously grow irrelevant of who is in Government because of how Society has changed.

Regarding the current Government, which I personally believe (opinion not fact) results in your views being more defensive to any criticism. I completely understand that they have inherited a Country in a bad situation. As have previous Governments.

Contrary to the popular belief upon this forum, I have no political allegiance and really do not want any Government to fail. I really do not care who Governs the Country as long as it’s beneficial to the majority.
What is not beneficial to the Country is Labour not being held to account for their mistakes or continuing to pass blame. It is wearing thin with the public and Labour/Tories should try and understand why people are leaning towards Reform. But no, let’s lead with the arrogance that they are stupid, racist and ill informed because it worked so well for you in the Brexit vote.

Back tracking from proposed benefit cuts. Proposals to offer more employment support to people with health conditions and disabilities was welcomed. Are you suggesting that back bench peers are going to rise up against offering jobs and training opportunities to long term unemployed?

This was only a small part of the government’s overall plan to help people into work, and the reversal isn’t stopping any other parts of it. If Inflation/ Borrowing costs hadn’t risen as they did it’s possible the government may not have even considered the cuts.

Note the purpose of a “Green Paper” - to consult. It often precedes a white paper. This one was even mentioned in the get britain working white paper I linked for you (paragraph 11 of the executive summary), One might say it is part of a plan that is being carried out.

Still would be a plan though, right?

As I have mentioned before, the trailblazers are a testing phase and would still have been under development when the white paper was being published because an incoming party new to government wont have the finer details already set out.

The key test is whether this, and the other areas covered in the white paper are progressing.

No, its not just an assessment. As per the Plan for Reform (paras 10 thru 13) section of the executive summary.

On the second point. They don’t need to. It is a strategy paper - there is enough detail in that paper to qualify it as a plan.

It perfectly supports my point, as I’ve explained previously, the hansard link was there to demonstrate the government is progressing something it said it would do in it’s white paper. That sounds to me like it is following a plan.

The testing phase is in a select number of areas before the policy is rolled out nationally. (white paper paras 120-123)

And, yes, it hasn’t expanded to Scotland because skills are the responsibility of the Scottish government and they already have their own version of this support programme the government is working to deliver. But you know this already because you read the white paper ( para 119).

Honestly, I hope I would do a better job than you have in actually reading the white paper and trying to understand the landscape. I have no problem with giving credit to a conservative government for things they do well - after all they were responsible for the ‘Kick Start’ scheme following covid. The likelihood that they would have gone for something like this is pretty low though. This looks somewhat similar to the New Deal stuff under New Labour.

Enough placements to help nearly 1 million young people if the government’s figures are correct. However, I’m sure they hope the other changes they are making before the 18 months point is successful and so the places won’t be needed.

How much do you think they need to spend?

So you expected the government to go out and sign companies up to a scheme they haven’t fully designed or agreed funding for yet, and employers to publicly commit to one?

For what its worth employers and trade bodies are most likely to have been involved in the planning of this scheme.

This particular policy. It’s just one plank of the governments proposals, which you know because you have read the white paper.

Definitions of the word ‘plan’ include
An intention or decision about what one is going to do.
A detailed proposal for doing or achieving something.
A set of decisions about how to do something in the future.

So, yes, I do think the white paper supports this.

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Where have I even hinted at that?

The Government had a “Plan” regarding PIP, they went to implement it but back tracked on their “Plan” because of the back bench pressure.

I think you have misunderstood. Forget Inflation/borrowing and the attempt to bridge a £5bn deficit. The Government had to amend their plans because of the risk of it being defeated by rebel back benchers.

So to “consult” would be to see what their own Party members thoughts were on the proposals…yes or no?

No, there will be 55,000 placements.
The Government also aims to create 350,000 training opportunities.
Each placement will be guaranteed for 6 months, for a total of 25 hours a week.

And here is the positive news….

They believe more than 1,000 will start work in the first 6 months. Well only 900,000+ more to go.

This is all without no Companies being signed up for the scheme.

It is nothing more than an idea.

It doesn’t matter how much I think they should spend or even how much they do spend it is how they spend it.

None of this funding creates jobs, it could also potentially see other people lose their jobs. Why employ someone and pay their wages when the Government are providing someone for free?

What happens after the 6 months?

Again trying to draw a line under this matter.

In our original exchange, I said that I felt there was no real plan and I stand by that. It all seems a bit reactive and you have provided nothing to change my opinion.
We are 18 months into this Government and whilst I appreciate things don’t happen over night, I would have expected more progress and clarity.

For example, The Youth Trailblazers launched March this year on an initial 12 month basis and it has now been extended for a further year, which means we would have had close to 3 years of the “testing phase”. It shouldn’t be being extended it should be being expanded.

I think Labour in general have a lot of good ideas which will take time to implement. However, they will not be afforded the time with the important ones, the ones that affect the public directly, in the pocket.

I really hope your belief and optimism comes to fruition. I would love nothing more than for you to message me in 2 years time saying ‘See, I told you so’. :+1:t2:

Great.

Just great.

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