Who would you buy?

The Albert
5553

I’m not sure I agree, my view is we are seeing Klopp slowly working out the loyalty business v the ruthlessness business. Something he has never had to do before. Every other team he built was ripped up year on year so he kept having to rebuild… Liverpool is the first time he’s been able to (for the most part) keep together the side he wants. The problem is that level of loyalty is now starting to backfire.

The question for him should have been Milner or Henderson, not retaining both. Freeing up wage and space to bring in a younger midfielder. We’ve kept both and now seeing Milner way out of his depth and picking up injuries and Henderson clearly on a massive downward spiral physically… It’s well documented Edwards and Klopp didn’t see eye to eye on Henderson renewing (like they didn’t on Gini).

I also think it’s Klopp wanting the perfect player not the scouts. By all accounts (you can believe them or not) when Touchameni fell through it was Klopp he refused players wanting only someone like Bellingham. What is fact is on the 30th August Klopp literally holds his hands up and says he was wrong and we need reinforcements in the middle. I find it utterly staggering that after that and seeing the team regress in further in 9 months a midfielder wasn’t first through the door 1st of Jan.

For me I’m massively worried the backroom staff which offered a strong challenge back to Klopp is gone or on it’s way out and so far the decisions Klopp has made based on loyalty are now unwravelling also… Lots of players should have been moved on (at a loss if needed) to make room for fresh energy. This is the same Klopp who had to have his ear bent to sign Mane and Salah over Draxler and Goetze. I don’t buy it’s the scouting structure looking for the perfect player, I say it’s the opposite. The scouting structure are the ones who unearthed Robbo…

You are a very well educated guy in terms of football, when you watch us play can you see a game plan? I honestly watch us and can’t see what we are trying to do. This is what I see;

We start every game without urgency and full of complacency - Leading to conceeding an easy goal 1st
We no longer counter press
We no longer press bar one or two token attempts
We aren’t press resistant
The high line is being massacred at will
We spend the game playing suicide cross field balls which get intercepted with glee
We pass the ball slowly side to side ending at Trent or Robbo who cross the ball into no-one
Our defensive shape appears to have midfielders as wide forwards and a lone no.6 covering the pitch

I’m at a total loss at what our game plan is or is trying to be.

3 Likes
5554

I think our gameplan has been informed by the increasing influence of Lijnders and some of his more radical ideas, as well as an acknowledgement of the loss of energy in midfield.

The two CMs previously had the role of pressing but also covering their respectielve full back areas. This season that has changed with Thiago and, usually, Elliott not really having any defensive responsibilities and instead being asked to be forward thinking players and much more creative factors.

The full backs who were at their most devastating when defending was a secondary responsibility now are expected to provide both an attacking outlet and do all their own defending which has exposed fallabilities in both Trent and Robbo’s games to a greater extent.

Its hard to know what the plan is with the DM position because frankly the options we have there are way below par. Fabinho is a player who thrived when he had good, hard working midfielders either side of him and he could focus on hunting the ball. Now he is a bit more exposed and has to think about monitoring runners from midfield mich more than he has previously had to. I think the idea is that the two CBs and the DM are supposed to be the only part of the system that stay still. In theory they would be the rock upon which everything else is built. Unfortunately none of them have played well, Fabinho is a limited player but is very good at a small number fo things. In previous seasons we have covered up his weaknesses using the rest of midfield because we needed those strengths he does have. However, that support structure is gone and it is highlighting that he is very poor at tracking midfield runners and thus often leaves overloads against our defenders who have struggled to cope with it.

Coming back to the full backs, its a regular occurance now that Trent or Robbo is facing 2v1 situations aerially because a big CM has been able to run into their area unchallenged. Its a weakness we knew they had in their game but one we’ve made worse by having a bad system.

Long story short, we’ve fucked up tactically this season, I definitely believe a lot of the failings of this campaign have been on the coaching and gameplan, not due to all our players suddenly becoming shit. I think the concept was that with reduced midfield ‘legs’ and with us having plenty of more lightweight and technically gifted players like Elliott, Jones, Naby and Thiago then we could transition away from TAA and Robbo being our main attacking outlet and towards getting that more creative midfield. Partly thats an acknowledgement that our CM options simply can’t do what the midfield of 2019/2020 could and partly an idealistic goal of being able to control games using technical players in a more creative way. Unfortunately I think the plan was flawed because of the knock on effects I spoke of above - FBs have been asked to do too much, CBs are getting overloaded, DM is asked to do things he’s not capable of… and also the wide attackers are too far away from the goal as they try to allow space for the CMs to play in.

Its all become a bit of a clusterfuck and I think Klopp has to take the blame for that, although I believe the idea itself was probably from Lijnders (who I like but acknowledge he is a bit of a stubborn zealot in his idealistic approach).

Anyway… yes, all of the above would seem to counter the point that Klopp can use limited or “not perfect” players effectively. After all if he can do it then why has he fucked it up so badly this season? Well I think this season is a bit of an abberation. We’ve seen him manage average/limited players really well in previous years. The obvious example is the Phillips/Williams CB situation when he learned to pull Trent and Robbo deeper and had the midfield sit on top of the CBs to give them extra support. This allowed them to simply head the ball away, something they’re both good at, rather than over complicate it for them and get them in trouble.

I also see his success with Fabinho as this. Fab is long legged, a good tackler and - if the ball is ahead of him - can be really tough to get past. However he is a bad reader of the game, shows not discipline in following runners and is incredibly slow. Klopp was able to use the strengths of his game for years while covering up his deficiencies through his use of Henderson and Wijnaldum to cover space. Sometimes we saw the weaknesses, sometimes players ran away from Fab and scored, but more often than not the system allowed Fabinho to thrive and those weaknesses didn’t matter too much.

I could see us working that magic again and getting players whose skillset compliments those of the existing squad. A quick, strong midfielder whonis good in the air with defensive discipline to play on the right side of CM could really free up Trent to do what he is good at and help Fabinho by allowing him to ignore the right side of the pitch like he is used to doing. That kind of midfielder can be found for significantly cheaper than the likes of Caicedo, Bellingham and Fernandez.

We need a tactical rethink, the whole structure and game plan has been wank this season and it will continue to be because we don’t have the skillset in CM to change it. Klopp gets a 3/10 at best for this season. My point is that I believe we can improve significantly by getting a few players in who offer some of the skills we lack (pace, strength, aerial ability and discipline) even if they can’t do the forward thinking attacking stuff that Lijnders/Klopp ideally wants. If we are stuck on trying to find players who can offer everything then its going to be codt prohibitive, time consuming and, possibly, fruitless.

8 Likes
5555

This is a fair and accurate point. I read last night that we’ve managed to do what Wegner did in his last few seasons and devolve from what made his teams great… We’ve prioritised technical skill over athleticism which has lead to everything you’ve described below.

I don’t think Ljinders is a bad coach btw, I just think his ideas are more akin to a structure like the other Pep has which is you can keep buying players who have the technical ability but also the athleticism needed to succeed in the premiership… The Silvas, De Bruyne etc. Are perfect examples of technically good enough for Pep’s tactics but also with the engines to go toe to toe with the big beasts which are dominant in most premiership midfields.

I read a very detailed analysis of what went wrong at NEC for Lijnders and the tactical structure he wanted with this roaming “free” right back was exactly what we saw the first few games of the season… Trent must have loved it!

Unfortunately that doesn’t work for us, but also why I can see us wanting Bellingham - He has the perfect blend. It feels like Bellingham has made us blind to the actual needs of the team and waiting 2 years for him (and we may now not get him) has meant us passing up more than good enough midfielders who could have improved us.

Personally the pragmatic approach would be to rule ourselves out of the Bellingham race and put that £130mil to 3 midfielders who have the skills we need… There are more than enough out there which would improve us massively. We should have had a bid in for someone like Adams when the US left the world cup, there is no way Leeds wouldn’t have sold him this window. He’s not Bellingham level but he’s what we actually need right now.

2 Likes
5556

One of my more controversial takes was that I really wanted us to sign Anguissa from Fulham back when he couldn’t get a game for them. I saw him a few times, recognised the physical prowess, aerially ability and strength he had. A bit of a basic player in that he can’t really do anything to hurt an opposition but I thought he looked like the player who would be a natural progression from Henderson for the RCM role. Alas he’s gone to Napoli and now looks great for them.

He’d look fucking awesome for us right now.

1 Like
5557

Don’t see why that should be controversial, we’ve had success with that type of signing before and he had attributes that we were clearly lacking.

I’d have heen happy with Douglas Luiz in the summer. A couple on here thought that was a preposterous idea but he’s showing he’s better than what we have and he’d have offered some of the physicality we’re lacking in there.

That said, there are a lot of players who’d probably make this midfield look better. If we had Dewsbury-Hall and Ward-Prowse as our 8s we’d probably look better, which is more than a little concerning given they are only slightly above average level premier league midfielders IMO.

I’ve understood waiting around for the right player previously but this midfield needs help now, and it needs far more than just Jude Bellingham.

3 Likes
5558

No.

5559

Funny that you mentioned Silva specifically (if you’re referring to David) because I got the impression that coaching staff want(ed) to mould Elliott into that kind of player.

I don’t know if it’s Lijnders who’s putting the ideas into Klopp’s head but we’ve been discussing this slow/failed transition ever since Alcantara signed. We’ve always had greater possession than majority of our opponents, perhaps coaching staff wanted to build on that, make the team run a bit less and thus reduce the probability of injuries in the process?

Even though this team is a pale shadow of what it used to be, there are shades of Guardiola’s Bayern throughout the playing staff. Maybe that’s what Klopp and Lijnders are targeting in the long run, i.e. a team that emphasises technical qualities of players through possession and wearing teams down?

Maybe that incessant running is what got the team into this mess and made the transition Carra is speaking of a necessity in the long term. Personally, I think the squad is brimming with talent but it lacks balance, mostly in midfield. It’s probably a matter of finding functional players, so to speak, rather than the next big thing. What Klopp wouldn’t give for Firmino’s DM equivalent and maybe someone like Gundogan at his best…

2 Likes
5560

Yes both David and the horrible one Bernardo… Both small in stature, technically excellent but with huge engines that meant they were never a liability on the defensive side.

And that’s the key you can’t just be technically great in this league, you need to be able to get down and dirty. The age old “could he do it on a cold and windy night in Stoke” whilst a cliche joke held a hell of a lot of actual reality in the root… The premiership is a hard and tough old league, every single team is full of big, tall strong lads who put in a shift for 90 minutes.

We look more like Norwich these days, coming up trying to play nice football but being ripped appart defensively due to a complete lack of physicality.

Sweeting makes the right point that our no.6 is positionally poor, imagine that… Your key/prime defensive midfielder with huge parts of his defensive game lacking. It also then doesn’t help structurally we are just all wrong, deciding to play our fullbacks inverted and pushing our midfielders to wide forwards is horrific to watch. It’s gaining us nothing in attack and leaving us wide open with same said no.6 trying to cover the whole pitch.

2 Likes
5561

Same player Benfica want to replace the outgoing Fernandez…

Never seems to be us making those under £20mil punts anymore…

We should be jumping in, signing this guy then sending Elliot or Carvalho to Southampton on loan…

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5562

well we made a few of those in the last few years and they were never good enough cos they are not expensive…

Here We Go Popcorn GIF by Liverpool FC

2 Likes
5563

I’d happily sacrifice mighty red for another Robbo mate.

5564

I do think if we want to put this stuff out us scraping for pennies behind the sofa (probably a tactic in itself) then we really should be making the move before the big move.

2 Likes
5565

January, first defeat after restart of the season…

Panic mode is on.

5566

Posts like this are utter dross… It’s basically trolling.

The signs of this team being fucked have been there for day 1, when we scrapped a draw Fulham… It’s not got better.

Fulham 2-2
Forrest 1-0
Leeds 2-1
Napoli 4-1
Brighton 3-3
Brentford 3-1

All hugely disappointing for a team of our quality and we’ve not improved as a team since day 1 of this season, especially after the team had a winter break to work on “defensive structures” (quote Klopp btw).

But yes you post silly things like “panic mode on”.

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5567

Not the season we wanted so far, but we are not “f*cked” either.

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5568

If we don’t get champions league I’d argue we are. It’s our biggest revenue stream for a club which has to live within it’s means.

And we are massively at risk of not getting top 4, we just blew another chance to gain ground.

Arsenal, City, Newcastle all in great form… Chelsea spending money like prime russian money days… It’s a tall order.

1 Like
5569

One of the most common patterns we’d see when playing well was:

  1. We force the ball out to the FB by the touchline
  2. The CF and the 8 on that side collectively cut off the ball inside and back to the keeper
  3. The FB aggressively steps up to cut off the ball into feet up the line.
  4. The only balls left available are ones pumped forward, and Fabs drops off into the FB position to deal with the one played down the line and we invariably win that one back.

He was very good at that as he was often facing down a player physically overmatched he could easily beat. Now, the ball is not being forced into that trap anything like as well and the opposition has more options to play out. The result is that Fab is then having to patrol an area 70 yards wide rather than 10 yards, and often having to players running off him or at him instead of trying to win a header.

There was a good piece in the Athletic a couple of week ago describing the counter intuitive importance of Grealish and Mahrez to City’s defense. The one sentence idea is that by them slowing the game down City have time to get their spacing right so that when they lose it they are less exposed. I feel like we’re caught in that in between stage of trying to add some of City’s quality on the ball to help us in our new reality of playing teams who let us have the ball while still having a core of the team based on the high tempo identity. We’re now constantly getting caught in that position your screenshots in the match thread showed - ball forced forward too early with our attackers too far apart so when we lose it they are then easily played through and the players lack that raw athleticism to pull it back together.

4 Likes
5570

That’s my view as well.

I think Klopp backs himself and his coaches to take an Andy Robertson and turn him into the best left back on the planet. Buy a player like Mane or Salah - considered a bit average - and turn them into world class. Someone like Gini Wijnaldum or Diogo Jota.

It’s actually Klopp’s stock in trade. It’s what he does best.

5571

They weren’t finished and proven products at top clubs, Liverpool very, very rarely get players like that.

But they were better than average, without going into the impossible mission of judging how outside football public (media and fans) considered them.

In the professional world, among top club’s scouts and directors, they were rated and wanted.

Of course, it depends also from player to player.

Not even Real Madrid’s every purchase is an “Mbappe”.

1 Like
5572

We built our entire success on it?

Matip, Robbo, Gini, Mane, Salah, Firmino…

We appear to now just want the Alisson and Van Dijk level signings at the club rather than a mix.

It’s why the Gakpo signing is actually good, good value for a player we can turn into a world class one.

Crazy we haven’t done similar with a midfielder, no way you can’t tell me there aren’t players around the £30mil mark we could have signed in the last 2-3 windows.