Assisted dying… should it be allowed?

Away End - General Chat
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It may work differently in different places, but living wills don’t tend to have much legal standing when it comes to end of life decisions. Related to the point @mackie made it is not uncommon for someone to include a Do Not Resuscitate order, meaning no life support or intubation, and have that overruled by a family member ordering the doctors to keep doing what they can.

I mentioned how good the show was in the TV thread, but there is a really well done treatment of this in the series of The Pitt that just ended

There was also an awful case here in the US not long after I moved here of a man who was prevented from allowing the Drs to turn off the machines on his comatose, brain dead wife by legal actions from her parents who, with the backing of politically backed religious organizations, kept the legal fight going for years. She did not have a living will, but even if she did the parent’s objections would likely still have had to go through the courts.

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My wife has told me if she was to develop Alzheimers,as her father did,that if she is unable to avail of assisted suicide, then we have to put her in a home and wants none of us to do the things for her that her family did for their father for the 12 years leading up to his passing at the age of 72.

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It happened roughly ten years ago, and to be fair, home care services have since then spectacularly developed around here. But I’m not sure that he was in a state where even extended home care service would have been enough. Anyway, it’s tragic indeed, but it was his choice, and should be respected.

@RedOverTheWater , I think the crucial thing is personal choice. When do you feel that you are at the end of the road, even with efficient care service around you? Even without having a terminal illness?
I think it’s a deeply personal issue, and my belief is that society should allow everyone to decide when it’s time to go.

As a contrast to the sad story I told above, here’s another one:

I had an old, 95-years old aunt in the Netherlands who decided that it was time. She had no terminal illness, but her form, which had been quite excellent until that point, was declining very rapidly. So, she recently applied for assisted dying*, decided of the date, had a last happy meal at home with her nearest family members, and then took the pill. Everyone having assisted to that feels grateful for how it went.

(* In the Netherlands, they apply one of the most liberal assisted dying regulation in the world. She had no problem receiving the authorization through her doctor.)

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I think that’s your personal view, as it’s rather illogical since pretty much all jurisdictions where it is legal, it was not legal prior to the legislature “passing laws to end it”.

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Terry Schiavo?

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Yeah.

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I think we’re all giving our personal viewpoint in the discussion, and I appreciate that it is a difficult subject, with differing sincere perspectives.

On this one my view is that society should care for human life, not pass laws to end it. I don’t think that’s illogical, but if others disagree I can live with that!

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I don’t think the two are in tension with each other. I think it’s all the more because human life is so valuable that we should recognise that life with suffering can be miserable, especially where there is no hope for recovery.

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I’m close to your opinion here. I just come down on the side that says palliative care should be as good as it can possibly be, to alleviate the suffering, and when the time comes you should die naturally.

In a spirit of sharing life experiences as others have (thank you) -

Last year I went to a funeral for a 4 year old girl. My wife and I know the parents and I’m friends with her dad. She wasn’t expected to live for very long after birth, but they got four precious years with her. It’s fair to say that the little girl knew more suffering than most, in her few short years. Multiple surgeries and various physical things were wrong. She was in and out of different hospitals quite a lot and her parents would travel to other cities to try this specialist and that specialist to see if anything more could be done.

Her life, even with all the suffering, had so much value. She was a force of nature with her older siblings, and in her own way she would try to do everything they could. She couldn’t talk but she could communicate with various sounds and had learned some sign language too. She could express her full array of emotions and for the people who knew her, she would often light up the room.

Her funeral was moved to a larger church in the area because their little church couldn’t handle the numbers. It was standing room only. The night before, when I went to the visitation, I stood in line for well over an hour before I even got inside the building to pay my respects. The whole community had come out for her.

As I reflect on the whole thing and write this post, I am as certain as I can be that the little girl’s suffering was not in vain. She was helped as much as she could possibly be helped, but I know there was a lot of anguish and struggle mixed in. It would not be fair or representative to pretend that aspect wasn’t there too.

But there was something more. There was also an outpouring of love that revealed something important about the human condition. It felt like we were at our best, rooting for, and rallying around the girl and her family, even though she died, and even though there was suffering in her life. It wasn’t in vain. I hope I don’t sound trite with all this, because I have a tear in my eye as I’m typing. It was tragic, but it was beautiful at the same time.

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Money dirties every conversation, but it is relevant to point out that end of life care is incredibly expensive and contributes to a significant amount of our health care spending. Even well off people can pretty quickly exhaust their ability to pay for the nice hospice care they had picked out when still with their faculties and end up having to move to somewhere they didn’t imagine it would end for them.

This is an another area where the idea of dignity comes into play.

The idea of a law being passed and applied in a way that makes the elderly think they have to take this way out to not be a burden to their kids and to not use all their saving on end of life care sends a shiver down my spine and is what makes me uncomfortable formalizing this. But I have no problem with everyone agreeing to look the other way at this choice being facilitated for people who choose it for themselves.

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That is an awful, tragic story. Devastating for the little girls family.
But i have to ask myself, should any young life be subjected to enormous suffering, when the end is always in sight?
Surely, despite all of the positivity her life injected into others, surely there is a case to cease her suffering at an earlier stage?

Its complicated by her age, as she cannot have made her own decision.

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This is the hardest and it all comes down to suffering.

It would be heart rendering to see one so little suffer, however, we would all look to do the same as this little girls parents in trying to find hope, to wish for something that could be done to give her a long life.

But if the pain or constant operations are causing her to suffer or be in pain, just too hard to think about.

I hate to see littles ones suffering.

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Definitely complicated by age. I think when you have lived a full life and are now facing the guaranteed prospect of spending your last months, year, in bed, in pain, maxed out on pain meds, I think even if you have religious beliefs, it will be tested to the limit.

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No offence, but did anyone ask her?

Your entire post has been about those people around her, as though their interest in her prolonging her suffering outweighs her own interest in ending her suffering.

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The girl died of natural causes after four years with a loving family. The name they gave her was the French world for miracle. It almost sounded like Mary. She had disabilities that gave her challenges that most do not face. I’m not sure on the pedagogical development for such a young child, in terms of knowledge of death.

I just raised her example as it was a personal one for me, since others were giving personal examples. The conversation was talking about suffering, almost as being something to be eschewed at all costs. The texture I was trying to add was that even in the presence of suffering - which nobody would choose, but it may come to us anyway - there might be other things, perhaps even beautiful things, that are happening.

In the midst of her struggle I saw love, family, community, striving, hope, sadness and acceptance as her time came to an end.

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Sure, and I’m replying to your personal example trying to illustrate the flaw in your thinking there.

I personally feel it’s an inherently selfish/self-obsessed attitude that goes “but their suffering enriches me so it’s good”. It doesn’t matter what the suffering might add. If you need someone else’s suffering to teach you love, family, community, striving, hope, sadness, and acceptance, then that’s a you problem, not a burden that someone else should bear.

It disgusts me that the life of a toddler should be reduced to an instrument to fulfil others. That is no reason to make her suffer, and anyone who tried to prolong her life to fulfil themselves should be ashamed of themselves.

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To be fair, I don’t think the suggestion is about using the little girls life as an instrument to better others.
It’s a natural effect of a family or community rallying in the face of tragedy.

My point is about the outcome. If dying was inevitable, isn’t it surely better to cease the pain.

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My words were clumsy, yours are better.

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The outcome is always the same though, and death is always inevitable, so where do you draw the line?

Cue someone saying - Oh, that baby born 2 minutes ago will inevitably die, so should we just speed that up and kill it now?

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Haha @cynicaloldgit

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