England National Team

Pitchside - Football Forum
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Not for me. His style might not be exciting, but he’s taken England to the world Cup semis and the final tonight, that they only lost on penalties. If England win the shoot out tonight, Southgate is a national hero. Therefore he can’t be a zero on a shootout loss in my book.

I like the way he conducts himself, and how he picks players regardless of where they play, unlike managers of the past. Hes made them into a team, they are United. You don’t just rip it up at this stage in my book.

Not that I’m particularly fussed. I wanted the win for the players that I like (except pickford!).

Best thing though, club football is back in 3 weeks and the transfers will pick up.

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I think he deserves the chance to lead them at the next World Cup at least. If at that tournament he still cannot set them up to be a bit more ambitious with the ball then I think the FA will have to make a ruthless decision or risk wasting another fantastic generation of young talent.

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You know we had Sam Allerdyce before. Give me Southgate all day long. He will learn from this mistake.

He deserves a chance for the World Cup at least.

We haven’t a great pool of managers to choose from.

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Allardyce, for all his flaws as a man, is a significantly better manager.

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I’m genuinely curious if/how anyone thinks that England will build on this result going into the WC. With the apparent commitment to just being reactive, I don’t see how the team takes the next step. Is there even any vision as to what a next step would look like?

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I agree with @Prolix. My opinion is only that of a neutral with no emotion invested into the England program so take only what it’s worth.

With the incredible depth of talent Southgate has to choose from he shows such little ambition or courage. It doesn’t at all feel any identity or vision, as Prolix points out. My own perception throughout the tournament he wasn’t setting his team up to go win, but simply not to lose. Far too special talents he could choose to have that approach. And to that point, I thought he did a terrible job with player rotation.

I posted in the match thread, his choice to bring Sancho and Rashford on at the very end for me felt completely contradictory to every decision he’s made in the tournament up to that point.

I very much wanted England to win this trophy for the supporters on this site.

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It’s funny. With Sancho, foden, and Grealish available (all probably 70 to 80 mil plus transfer fees), he picked Saka. Saka is OK and did fairly well, but I’m not sold on his first touch (I’m sure it’s fine, but looked very heavy the entire tournament), and he picked Rice and Phillips throughout. Incredibly conservative. When it works, it looks brave shooting in eye of conventional wisdom. When it doesn’t…

England deserved to lose with how they treated second half. Can’t have zero ambitions in a game and expect to win. We were better side in first half and extra time, but can’t take foot off petal for 45 mins. Overall great showing, but losing final like that stings.

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Who else is there? Is there a better option than Southgate?

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The end justifies the means but when the end doesn’t materialise then the means are naturally going to be called into question. I don’t like Southgate, or England, but he’s got them to a semi and a final consequtively which is an achievement considering the results England invariably get in tournament situations. Getting to the pointy end and taking it from there is pretty much the name of the game for everyone; he did, the dice rolled and his team just came up short. His decision making is questionable imo, the handling of the shootout was bungled and his style of play is as dull as dishwater but his team shows a significant togetherness and spirit that is very unlike England of old. I didn’t want them to win and they’re not my cuppa but I can appreciate that he put out a team that came within a whisker and respect him and the team. There was no shortage of effort or fighting spirit. Sorry lads, well played.

That said he will keep the job, Southgate and for all the things done well I also think he’s missing a trick. There is an extremely exciting team in there and with more imagination could, and probably should, truly become a powerhouse for the next 5 years. Some overrating going on but there are some really good club players in there that have performed over the past few years. Nobody can tell me that Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Grealish, Foden, Sancho and Trent is not the basis for a fantastic attacking and dynamic team in the here and now whilst also in the next few years. They can’t all play at once and a team needs balance but you also have the likes of Henderson, Mount, Rice and Phillips. There are issues at the back from which national team has got absolute stars all the way through a team?

People always talk about balance and being able to fit a team together and that’s true too, you can’t just throw 11 players and then let them run out but it can also be used a crutch to justify overcaution and at the moment that’s where I think England are leaning too. They have a great squad with the basis of a damn good and exceptionally vibrant young team. Find a way to use them, dammit. There is nothing more frustrating and open to ridicule than a sports car being used as a farm workhorse.

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Yesterday your manager played 5 defenders and 2 holding midfielders together with Prickford that is 8 players that think defense first, and ordered to park the bus, played like Italy used to do before Mancini became their manager.

Has fat Sam got the England job back …

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People saying England will come back and go one better.

How? Manage to win the world club without playing any good teams at all?

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Southgate is afraid to sub Kane no matter how invisible he is, grow a pair Gareth.

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This might not be popular, but I think the criticism of Southgate is over the top. He’s not a top manager, but England had also top managers and not so great results, so…

I’d say he’s one of the key if not the most important factor why England’s performances and results improved during his time in the first place. What else? England had better squads than this one and looked like shite.

Let’s not make this England squad individually what they were during 00’s, when they had a larger number of better players, but didn’t look like a team from top to bottom, not often enough at least.

Yes, it’s a squad with some top individuals, some top talents, there’s good depth, but in some areas it’s a little bit weaker than in others (I’d say proper central midfield and goalkeeper, defence to some extent although Pickford had a decent tournament, hence why they went with a more solid and pragmatic approach). It takes time to add more layers to that base and evolve.

He did a lot of things right during his time, I’d say the majority of them. Before, top players had to play and people had a problem with it (though not immediately, you still get a good large portion of people that think having individuals is enough, go back and see how Brazil did in 2006). But that is not always possible, to fit them all in. When he started going more down the meritocracy route (still made some mistakes, some of which I agree with, everyone does), people still had a problem. You can’t win, you can’t please us fans. It’s why we are where we are, on forums.

I’d say he was exactly creative with his solutions, flipping formations, though not much.

Yes, last night wasn’t good enough and he’ll be “remembered” only for that final game. Early goal, England stopped playing, went a bit too deep, shit game. A bit like our final in Madrid, only Italy did better than Spurs to get back and turn it around. It’s not like an FM game when you click “go back to playing football” when Italy score. It’s a dangerous game to hold onto an early lead for so long. They spent 117 minutes, 2 hours of football, without a shot on target. Kane with zero touches in the box. It was a good tournament by England (Scotland game being so-so until last night), but last night yeah, it wasn’t good enough.

I also wouldn’t blame him so much for penalties. Saka on the 5th isn’t the ideal option, but I can understand if they trusted him with the knowledge they have and we don’t have and the kid wanted it. Who knows if some players like Grealish bottled it (although being technically sound and usually having confidence doesn’t guarantee being a good penalty taker). In the end, Rashford usually takes really good penalties, but his one last night was crap, you could see that already with his preparation (just like Belotti’s). Maguire’s pen was top (like Stevie’s against West Ham in the FA Cup final). Who would’ve said? So… it’s not really perfectly how we think or predict it would be.

I don’t think he necessarily needs to go, I don’t think he will. There’s enough good work there to trust him with another tournament or two. Why kill it now. What exactly did England do before Southgate for a long time? They’re getting closer now. Doesn’t mean they’ll improve on 4th in 2018 and 2nd in 2021 to go on to win in 2022, but there are no guarantees anyway. Losing at home on penalties could have more mental consequences, but I’d say stick with him for a little longer, let them evolve and see what happens in Qatar (or more).

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Here I don’t think that Kane is the problem, I said so on a number of ocassions, the setup and style seems to be the problem to me. It is prbably true that a faster and nimbler striker would be a better fit with all those low crosses England put in yet England haven’t a better striker than Kane so why persist with what doesn’t seem to work?

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For me, Southgate has been playing a brand of tournament football. It’s safe, not pretty but means they are difficult to beat.

No harm in that at all. No. 1 priority is being difficult to beat in tournaments.

But as with all England teams there is something missing. Sometimes its technical ability, most certainly mental.

I think there’s a mix of both this time round to be honest. Technically there is something missing in UK players that have basically spent there time developing and playing in the UK. The baseline quality is there but there’s still something missing. That of course isn’t a slight at Southgate, it’s something more fundamental than that.

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But again, it has to be put in the context of the draws England have had. I think the biggest factor in England’s improved performances in Southgate’s two tournaments is that England had virtual byes to the latter stages.

The fact is that as soon as England have had to play a good team under Southgate, they have lost.

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I cant argue with you here. The seeding system and England position in tat has always been a mystery to me.

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It also comes down to luck in the draw. France the top seed in their group drew Germany, Portugal and a not good but tough Hungary. Wood England still have finished first in their group if those three were in their group and by doing so played all but one of their matches at home?

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But when you look at champions at international level, you could say the same a lot of the time. So maybe it’s not so easy? Eh. I think we often have a wrong perception about that. It’s not all tough draws, dominating performances and/or high scorelines. That’s rare in fact. I’d say they deserved to reach the final stage(s). They’re back in the conversation. There were times when they couldn’t go past QF.

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My two pennies worth regarding Southgate: he should be retained until the world cup, because he has managed to achieve something countless managers broke their teeth on previously, and that’s creating a competitive unit with the players he chose. All of them pulled on one string - no off-the-pitch antics, the whole group came across as a humble, decent bunch of players, just like Southgate himself.

The latter is no big manager, but he’s relatively young and in my opinion, still has room to grow, just like the young squad he works with. Reaching one semi-final and one final in two tournaments is really not bad and certainly not to be scoffed at.

In my opinion, Southgate has used the past years to solidify the whole England building: off the pitch, there has been noticeable progress regarding the media covering of the team, and on the pitch, defensive solidity has obviously come first. While attacking talent has come in spades, the same can’t be said about the defence. Who could have thought that a defensive line consisting of P(r)ickford, Shaw, Maguire, Stones and Walker would be able to concede so few goals and look so solid throughout?

But despite of a relatively ordinary bunch of defenders in terms of individual quality, solidity has been achieved now. England are hard to beat, concede few goals, and are a very uncomfortable team to play for any opposition.

It’s all about the next step now. They need to shift the equilibrium point a bit, towards playing a more expansive, attacking game. The attacking talent available to Southgate demands it. Can he be the man to achieve that? I’d wait until the world cup to see if he can evolve with his team. If yes, they will be a real force to be reckoned with in18 months or so. I’m looking forward to see if that can happen.

But in order for that to happen imo, he needs a better goalie, and a couple of quality defenders to emerge. The current lot is ordinary and needs to be protected too much for the time being. Trent establishing himself at right back will help a lot already.

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