New European Super League

The Cruyff Turn
1817

The key difference would be the prices. Whereas you could go to the ground for a fiver at the time, prices progressively went through the roof and effectively barred the popular fanbase from going to the match. Before 1992, you could watch a game for free on the BBC. Afterwards, you had to pay for watching a game on Sky.

The money made the clubs more and more profitable, and thus, attracted the billionaires and oil sheiks. But a good part of the population was priced out going to the ground and enjoying a top level football match.

Interestingly, the appearance of internet has brought back a lot of priced out people back to the game, through illegal life streams and fans forums.

3 Likes
1818

I watched a video on Redmen tv. It was very good discussion with Henry Winter (The Times) and Paul Machin. They discussed the fallout of the Superleague and where do LFC go from here.
Winter compared the three US businessmen and we have least worst of the three and he thinks JW Henry needs to be educated about the fan culture in this country and the club need a supporter representative on the board.
It was very informative.

Henry Winter mentioned the Swiss football model which may work in this country.
I have no idea how it works.

Last point, Henry said " the fans have won the battle, but, not the war".

2 Likes
1819

Richie, you should read Aidrian Tempany’s book, And The Sun Shines Now. It’s about Hillsborough but goes fairly in depth to the comercialisation of football and the formation of the Premier League including all the Murdoch stuff. Also gives a good overview of how the German Bundesleague works with fan ownership etc. Really recommend it.

Whether football is better, technically prob yes, passion wise etc i don’t think so. I follow my local team Derry City FC and even if they are technically on a much lower level, the highs and lows at those matches are no less than at any other game i’ve watched or been to incl Liverpool, ROI etc, if anything it’s more extreme.

9 Likes
1820
3 Likes
1821

Better for who?
It was better for the ‘top six’.
The cercumstances were very different, English top clubs were playing catch up after 5 and in our case 6 years ban from european competitions. The Top heavy benefit meant the catch up took less time. On he otherhand the lower divisions suffered as the money got blocked at the top. Top heavy systems with reduced trickle down puts pressure on the base. It really was about not sharing though and when you look at the development of english football since one has difficulty to say it was beneficial in the long run (though as mentionned before I feel it definitely helped the top six catch up with the rest of europe.
My position is you need a healthy base (grass roots) to have a health system. I think France for example has 7 times more ‘qualified’ coaches than england does and that’s the sort of thing that concentrating the money at the top of the pyramid does it only benefits the clubs that can afford to take the best foreign talent and leaves even fhose just below taking journeymen foriegners and that’s still the clubs in the top flight. It coulld also be a reason for extremely poor referee standards in England, it’s a big debate that needs thought. This type of coup that we witnessed in 1992 and now isn’t the way forward. Oh! dear the change is too slow and they don’t understand how covid has affected it all we need to blast them out the water type shit and then harking on about pyramids is not imo very helpful.

3 Likes
1822

As I mentionned english football had just got over the euro ban at the time and english football over those 5 years had taken a dive. I do think the new EPL helped the top english clubs get over that quicker however it’s only reacently that adventurous clubs like Liecester, Wolves and Leeds have come back into the shout. We of course had our own problems and if we look at LFC I think the debate really opens up, we should have been one of the benefactors yet we were useless at doing it effectively. So there’s more to it and owners are in the center of that discussion as much as anything else.
I think the answer is very debatable with many correct answers depending on how you weight it. This park the bus style we have seen more and more since '92 is an example. is it really better to have more than half the league parking the bus?

1823

Teams usually take a negative approach because it’s the only way they can hope to get a result against better, more expensively assembled, teams; the gulf between those at the top and the rest has steadily been widened.

In this respect, football only reflects society in general.

2 Likes
1824

This was excellent and essential viewing and an eye opener. Thanks for this.

1 Like
1825

Anyone notice how all the comments on articles about Henry’s pathetic load of bullshit PR stunt are “you’ve made a mistake, I accept that and have forgiven you”? They’re all upvoted to high heaven, whereas those calling them out on it (Rightfully), have no votes at all? Seems a pretty obvious PR push.

1 Like
1826

All that’s right bar the term “more” there was literally bugger all matches on tv, at one point ITV outbid the BBC and then didn’t show any football for half a season just to keep MOTD off the air (this is how petty and shit it all was).

Imagine half a season of no highlights of any kind. The book “The Club” covers this well, some money needed to flood into the game, the grounds were Victorian, the atmosphere according to my uncle was nasty at least in Manchester, and hooligans took advantage of that. I think the PL became obscene but it created a market in the end I despise Murdoch as much as anyone but football needed to maximise its potential.

This idea that pre Premier League was a great time, the only gay footballer was driven to death, racism was the norm and as I said the grounds were Victorian death traps with hooliganism rapant. The saddest event bar Hillsborough and Hysen is the fire at Bradford City, 7 minutes to engulf a stand and effectively leave many to a horrific fate. The fact the authorities did nothing, imagine letting people into a stand that had been condemned, imagine getting that passed nowadays and yet in May 1985 that happened, and nothing changed.

Now homophobia has never gone away and nethier has racism but I would feel comfortable calling it now and approaching a staff member about it at Anfield.

Though 80s was just the conclusion of all that, this had been simmering since the 50s, the first heyday of football had passed even by the time of MOTD and the World Cup win of 1966.

I think I read that Snooker and Cricket were more popular and if you look back to the tv in the 80s one thing that only appears briefly is football.

Football has priced fans out and this needs tackling but it is safer today than its ever been. The PL has reached its peak and maybe that’s why the ESL came around. The PL was probably a reaction to the state of football who knows. Of course there was a satellite company that existed before sky and who sky bought out, they had the rights sealed but it was pulled at the last minute in the 80s.

Regardless the EFL was run by chairman who you see mocked in films like the Damned United. And the PL only came about because the FA hated them, not to mention only a few years early the football pyramid was a closed shop.

We all like a bit of nostalgia but from what I’ve read the EFL wasn’t all that and doesn’t sound all that, the PL maybe was a nesscary evil, but even I remember it being rather amateur like and we are talking 94/95.

I think it only really takes off when people like Arsene and the Italians at Chelsea arrive.

7 Likes
1827

The FA got a cut after '92 they got nothing from the premier league. So yes the 1st division helped support a whole system, now it’s a separte entity and not part of the pyramid at all. This is why these fuckwits talkig about the pyramid is so annoying they wanted to cut the pyramid up again into smaller pieces!

That’s a very difficult one as it depends which club but the english football culture is far from for example French or German. Englsih football fans are taken for granted and we have seen them get shut out more and more from a base that was near inexistant from forever as far as I can fathom; It’s nearly always been just the manager who talks ‘down’ to the fans, pleads with them. It’s just got worst.

1828

The overreaction to this has been quite something.

2 Likes
1829

Dunno if it’s even passionate, excellent crowd shots of the Kop overflowing mask that most grounds were empty in the 80s

1830

What? Just not true. The Premier League funds the Football Foundation the Facilities Fund, as well as contributing to the pension funds of all professional footballers from the transfer levy.

https://www.premierleague.com/communities/programmes/community-programmes/football-foundation?utm_source=premier-league-website&utm_campaign=website&utm_medium=link

1831

Good. Welcome to reality now hopefully you and your club will fuck off.

Wow, what a thread…

Fucking hell

1 Like
1832

The only heads that should roll for this are those at the top - those owners who actually made the decision to breakaway. It’s ultimately their responsibility. I always find it incredibly distasteful when subordinates get sacked for the decisions of their bosses.

2 Likes
1833

Perez is a bellend.

That Redmen TV with Henry Winter is a good watch. Recommend it.

1834

How’s this ESL project going?

1 Like
1835

You’re just hearing what you want to hear which is why what Carragher and Neville were saying makes more sense to you while damning with faint praise what Barnes has to say and wondering what he earned. Why not wonder what Jamie and Neville are getting from their paymasters who stood to lose their product?

The proposal is off and after the madness slowly journos are waking up to the reality of what football actually is and more balanced views of what football was are coming out. You yourself just admitted that your experience is only of the PL with virtually nothing of before. There was a whole block of resistance built around the Football pyramid, closed shop, sporting integrity, 125 years of history but for many of those the history has been, debunked is probably not the right word, but clarified let’s say.

The formation of the PL is 92 was seismic. It shifted football to what we know today and while many things changed for the worse, there were many changes for the better. Football grounds were dilapidated and dangerous to visit not just because of the facilities but also because of the local inhabitants. Hooliganism was rife, grounds were largely not reaching capacity for games, broadcasting of games was shoddy, racism towards players and fans alike of their own club from other fans was the norm… I could go on. That period is often romanticized and there were obviously very good things about it too but let’s face it, football was a pretty dark place to be a heck of a lot of the time.

Then the Lord Taylor report came in, Sky came in with the money and football changed. Better facilities, a recognizable world wide brand that now had to protected which tied into significant things happening in society that made racism, homophobia and violence in grounds far less prevalent as well as increased accessibility. So good things happened too but also at a major cost. Football became big business, money flooded in, money flooded out, clubs came and went, changed, went bust and all the while costs and wages and transfer fees soared ushering in football as we know it. It’s never black and white. You could rock up to a ground in 87 and pay to get in, sit with your mates and sing and sway but you could also break a leg, or have your head broken by someone else or maybe get caught in a crush and not come home. Now we have to fork out and get fleeced and have our clubs treat us like customers but if we want, at a cost, we can also watch and follow all of our clubs games with a few clicks and if you do go to a game it’s generally safe and secure. Everything has a flaw somewhere, it’s just from which angle its viewed.

10 Likes
1836

I agree with what you say but I think we all need to acknowledge we are part of the problem.

We have all fed the beast and yes reform is needed.

A lot of people have mentioned about the PL and sky and the money involved and how it has ruined the game but there are probably a lot of ways in which it has made the game a lot better as well.

You’re correct I only really have a football fan experience and knowledge of football after 1993 however from what I know about football before then I wouldn’t swap what football is now (in the whole) compared to then.

And I am calling Barnes out because he can’t claim that the Premier League caused a detriment to football when he lined his pockets with the proceeds.

Again not criticising him for doing that, if your employer gives you a pay rise of course you’re going to take it but don’t then years later say “yes those increased wages and transfer fees wasn’t good for football or the fans”

2 Likes