Racism and all the bad -isms

Away End - General Chat
1024

It reminds me (via Stuart Lee) of the time when Jade Goody was racist on Big Brother, and Carphone Warehouse, the shows sponsor, put out a statement saying that racism was in complete opposition to the values of Carphone Warehouse. As if selling phones is an anti-racist endeavour?

I think it’s fair enough to think that the reason why corporations like Disney and Coke are pushing anti-racist messages, is that there is a benefit to the bottom line.

I’m not particularly arsed, to be honest. You can appreciate the steps a company has taken on their social responsibilities, while also being aware of their history (and the two are probably linked) and not seeing them as the vanguard of progressive values.

Ultimately this is people. A company is just the people who work for it and run it. It’s doesn’t set it’s own agenda or decide it’s own actions. People have generally become less racist over time. It therefore stands to reason that societies institutions have too.

Whatever their underlying reasons, corporations have to take action. I don’t think it’s right to criticise the ECB for taking a strong stance on this because twenty years ago they probably wouldn’t have given a shit. If they are now taking a strong stance on equality, then that’s good. It doesn’t matter how late they are to the party. I’d like to think it’s because the people who run the ECB are in a place where they understand that racist comments aren’t acceptable, but even if it’s more a PR/bottom line issue, the end result is that people see people facing consequences for racism, and that’s a good thing.

I’ll pull you up on this though. It certainly is not a given. And you do not get to decide you are not racist when you probably have a great deal of ignorance (as we all do) about how you attitudes, behaviours and actions are shaped by underlying and likely unconscious racism.

My employer is currently on a process of becoming an anti-racist organisation. My understanding of this is that it is not enough to just say you aren’t racist. You have actually stand opposed to racism, and recognise where your own culture promotes exclusion and promotes racist attitudes.

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1025

I am on an anti-racism learning course at this very moment (10 min break right now). There very much is a difference between non-racist and anti-racist as you say. One is a passive stance and ‘just not being racist’ ie. not really too interested about bringing about change but just not adding to racism, and the other is actively bringing about culture change (anti-racist ally) and outright fight against all racisms in every form, no matter how small.

@Klopptimist, this is for you: Microaggression - Wikipedia

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1026

This might be worth a read - and save your employers some money.

An extract -

The CIPD3 noted that, while UBT can increase people’s awareness and knowledge of diversity
issues, this evidence is generally based on self-reported measures, which may not be reliable.
Further, there is no conclusive evidence that diversity training changes attitudes – with some
studies showing that UBT does not change explicit gender stereotypes either. CIPD noted that
there is typically no sustained impact on behaviour and emotional prejudice following UBT, which
is not enough in itself to create diverse and inclusive organisations.

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1027

I think you’re cherry picking a bit there. The report suggests UBT can be useful, but it won’t eliminate bias and discrimination on its own. I think that’s a given.

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1028

Cherry picking? So what is it for then if the above is true? What is any company who are paying for this training expecting as a result? A short-lived, minor change in attitudes? In some cases this training achieves the opposite effect it sets out to achieve.

Box ticking in the extreme.

1029

It’s part of a process. It’s not the answer. Nothing on it’s own is.

1030

But this part of the process Does Not Work - and has been proven to Not Work so what is the point?

To persist with something that is ineffective, counter productive and diverts funds away from other projects is just insanity.

As I said - Box Ticking.

1031

It’s been proven not to work? What do mean by work?

UBT can be useful, but it’s unlikely to do much good on its own. That’s what the report you’ve posted says, and I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

My understanding of unconscious bias is not about trying to adjust people’s attitudes. You can’t train someone out of prejudice. What you can do though, is remove the opportunity for people to express those biases in stuff like recruitment/promotion.

At my place, we use a standardised recruitment process, the selection panel doesn’t have access to a personal background information (names, age, gender etc) at selection stage, and we have a third party cross check how we’ve scored candidate answers. This is backed by UBT, to help people understand why these steps are necessary.

If you’re hoping some unconscious bias train can stop people being racist, well no. It can’t.

Having done UBT at work, it was pretty basic to be honest, but the point is that it should be a very small part of a response. If organisations are doing UBT, and then not backing it up by adjusting their policies and procedures, then it’s missing the whole point of unconscious bias.

1032

Good because it doesn’t.

It does not achieve that - in fact it has been found to do exactly the contrary.

If it is only a small part of the process and it has been proven to have no effect on behaviours and a detrimental effect upon recruitment then what is the point of keeping it? - Unless it is part of a box ticking exercise?

If something is failing to achieve an objective or even part of an objective, get rid.and save yourself time and money.

1033

One of the dangers of UBT is that companies utilise it partly as shield against claims of harassment or discrimination. They’ll reference it as part of any defence that the firm has done everything it can so a) the discrimination alleged is less likely to have occurred ( :roll_eyes:) and/or b) if it did occur the firm had done everything possible to discharge their responsibility to ensure an appropriate working environment ( :thinking:).

I’m not 100% convinced it’s that effective but if UBT can change approaches or attitudes progressively in just a few individuals, particularly decision makers, it can only be a good thing.

Same with institutions or organisations that might be cynically engaging in virtue signalling on any particular topic, I don’t particularly care about their motivations providing a) they themselves are now practicing what they’re preaching, and b) that it actually encourages change among whoever their audience is which filters further into society generally.

It’s going to be a gradual process but part of it will necessarily involve prominent organisations and individuals leading by example and condemning inappropriate conduct where it occurs.

I do feel that people ought not to be hounded for historic indiscretions when they were younger if they can demonstrate contrition and that they’ve learned and developed (I’m not talking about sexual assaults here, more ill-advised remarks).

People need to be allowed to show that they’re capable of learning and adapting their behaviour as necessary, particularly as what society itself considers appropriate evolves. Judging people historically by standards of today always strikes me as ill-considered (depending on what the issue is) but if people cannot be allowed the benefit of the doubt that they really have eschewed the views they held many years previously, what hope is there that real progress will be made rather than engaging in anti-racism performance art.

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1034

Why else does business do anything if not to protect it’s ability to make money? Always look for the ££££ as they’re usually the answer.

1035

I think you are failing to understand what this actually is, and therefore I’ll respectfully withdraw.

1036

No I completely understand what it is, in fact, it has inspired me to set up my own company to help with the UB problem - This is first draft of the advertising literature :-

Did you know that racial bias happens mostly when people are asleep? This is the true meaning of unconscious bias and it is a very bad thing.

We at Dreamy Time UBT can intervene so that your employees no longer have racially biased dreams. We teach them techniques to completely eradicate their UB dreams, and so become a lot less racist in themselves and their decision making.

Even though the scientific evidence shows that this approach does not work and has zero lasting effect on employees thoughts or behaviour, and indeed can make employees even more biased, the anecdotal evidence is just undeniable.

Why not include Dreamy Time UBT as part of your staff development training. At only 10,000 UKP per session it is an absolute bargain.

If anyone would like to approach their employers on my behalf it would be most appreciated - I have some bottles of Snake Oil for sale as well if anyone is interested?

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1037

can i ask, why do people boo the taking the knee?

not the ‘becuase they are racist’ answer, but surely not that many people are openly racist enough to boo a simple guesture…even the most racist advocates always somehow dress up thier opinion with a justification.

ive seen some fuzzy coment about standing during the national anthem et al…

just wondering what the ‘justification’ is, not the motivation.

1038

Some wishy washy crap about BLM being ran by Millionaire Marxists apparently.

It may not be the satisfactory answer but ultimately the reasons eventually boil down to racism. Maybe not an outright hatred of black people per se but more of a protection of the status quo in which white people are the “norm” (for want of a better phrase).

I think it’s telling that these people usually come back around to talking about PC culture, multiculturalism and some variant of the replacement theory.

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1039

the Adam Goodes ‘saga’ in Aus was pretty distasteful too…theres a good doco on it. probo worth a google for those that dont know much…

basically a first nations player was abused by a 13 year old in the crowd…so he stopped, sounded her out and took it further, within (i think) 24 hours he was talking about re educating her on the subject…

unfortunately evrything spiralled out of control from there…most of the players i would suggest had his side, but the media was well and truely split. with the good old justification of ‘toughen up’ as the baseline.

the booing started, and didnt stop until he retired, pretty broken from a mad two years of pushing back, two years later.(edit; i think it was 2 years, not 100% sure)

he recently refused an offer to join the AFL hall of fame.

1040

Some of the England fans booing the taking of the knee and then when sterling a black man scored off comes their shirts to celebrate. Weird fuckers.

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1042

How about instead of taking the knee, all players stand and place both hands over their hearts, to recognise and raise awareness of the 18 million (WHO estimate) people who die of heart disease every year. Maybe the commentators / programmers could spend a few minutes discussing the causes of heart disease, the possible remedies and the best ways to respond if it happens to somebody near you.

Making a statement before a sporting event does not have to constantly be about a single issue.

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1043

Ha ha. You’re really hilarious. Don’t bother with a second draft.

Let me try and help you again.

Unconscious bias is…bias that is unconscious. Are you following so far?

We’ve all got it. It affects all of us, and it stands to reason that if we are going to build a society which is fairer and more just, we have to find ways of doing what we can to try and avoid being led by the primitive chimp bits of our brains where this bias resides.

Any company undertaking unconcious bias training and thinking that alone will solve the problem is wasting their time, and doing the shit thing that companies often do where they try and pass liability down the chain in a tick box exercise. The whole problem of unconcious bias is that our behaviours are often governed by an in group/out group, tribal mentality that very often we don’t even know we have. It’s nobodies fault - it’s just the way our brains are built. Training can’t stop that, but training can help staff understand those biases and then be supportive of the measures the company takes to reduce its impact (such as interview selection panels not seeing the names of candidates).

Good companies should be looking to minimise the effects of unconcious bias, not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because there is a tangible benefit to doing so.

Think about the company that loses business because the staff are led by their instinctive hind brain reaction. I remember years ago going to buy a suit, with loads of money in my pocket to spend on one. And because I dressed a bit scruffy, in shop after shop I walked out because staff would not give me the time of day. I remember a friends mum buying a car years ago and in loads of showrooms she went into, the staff were very nice and offered her a coffee while she ‘waited for her husband to arrive’.

And if you consider the experience from black peoples perspective, those examples get really unpleasant indeed. Often those people don’t mean to be racist, and would be horrified to be called racist, but their behaviour is discriminatory and does affect people.

The reaction of lots of white people to stuff like this is to dig their heels in, sneer, get defensive and insist this is not a problem. Like we want a fucking medal for not being the kind of person who pushes shit through a Pakistani families letterbox, or crosses the road when we see a black person, or makes ‘bud bud ding ding’ noises in Indian restaurants.

There is a lot more to racism that just not being an unpleasant cock. The onus is on us all to think about the way we behave and being open making changes to ourselves to help others.

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1044

Maybe they could do a minutes facepalm in recognition of the many people every year who are afflicted by the need to write absolute shite on the internet about things they don’t understand?

Footballers obviously care about racism, and are deeply troubled by receiving abuse, or seeing their friends and teammates receiving abuse, because of their skin colour. They want to make a gesture to show supporters and viewers that this is how they feel. It’s not an opportunity to criticise them because they aren’t also making gestures in solidarity with the millions of other causes that they could support.

I’m sick of people trying to justify their disapproval of the knee. Football shouldn’t be political. There are other causes. BLM is Marxist. Fuck of lads. If you’re booing the knee at least have the balls to admit you’re racist.

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