Oops. Going to edit that now.
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It was about how the club was conducting transfers, or rather, on how the owners were starting to get money out of the club by refusing to fund transfers.
In my book, this was all about g+h. As soon as they came in, everything started to unravel, and Rafa wouldn’t stand by and let it happen without a fight.
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In the case of me, and I think I can speak for @AnfieldRdDreamer on this, the intention is not to beat Rafa with a stick. I love the man, and defended him to the hilt, right to the bitter end.
A lot of time has passed, and I think you can look at his performance as Liverpool manager in a slightly more measured way. Along with everything he did, he also made mistakes and some of his weaknesses were exposed.
For example, around the time of the Athens final Rafa had drawn up a detailed statistical analysis that attempted to prove he was the third most successful manager in Liverpool’s history, below Paisley and Dalglish, but ahead of Bill Shankley. He was hawking this around journalists and showing it to his players. According to Brian Reade, it did not land well.
I don’t know what Rafa was trying to achieve, but why he thought a good way to win people round was with a series of pie charts and spreadsheets of his own making that placed him on a higher pedestal than a man who’d legend had passed into mythology I don’t know.
I don’t put that story there to kick him. It’s about understanding who Rafa is. Great football manager, tactical genius, wonderful human being. Also a bit of a mad bastard, intense to the point of obsession, and prone to pissing off people he worked with.
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Didn’t David Moores buy Dirk Kuyt out of his own pocket because Rafa wore him down? 
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Origi isn’t good enough. Keane may not have been good enough. But Klopp didn’t buy Origi, Origi isn’t also replicating here the highest levels of performance he’s ever achieved elsewhere.
Look Rafa wanted Keane. Rafa got Keane. Keane performed roughly equivalent to his best ever season prior to coming to us. That was despite being shunted wide, not playing consistently, being brought on as a sub a bit and being in his first six months at the club. Keane was also better than our other CF options except Torres at the time and in the 18 months after Keane was sold depth and options up front were things that really hurt us. Keane getting sold did nothing to benefit Liverpool on the pitch. It also wouldn’t have left a good impression on the guys in the changing room. He was sold at a loss, despite being a player the manager had wanted, for reasons completely unrelated to the player or his performance. It was a batshit carzy, snide, vicious thing to do to prove to everyone he was the boss and in charge. It was his decision to make but it was a shit one.
The fact that there is a player not good enough for the current (superior) Liverpool side that puts better numbers up than Keane did then doesn’t change that. But have you looked at Origis first 6 months with us?
Wow this thread is a bit more mad than the farming and unreliable rumours thread.
Klopp didn’t buy Origi, but he’s kept him here, and as far as I know, he said, upon his arrival, that he had been keeping tabs on Origi’s development and liked him already.
My view on Keane, he was rubbish on the pitch. Whether that was down to being misplayed, or that he wasn’t adaptable to the position Rafa wanted him to play, or he just ended up in Rafas bad books will always be unknown to us.
What I do believe is that Klopp and the club clearly put a lot more emphasis on the person that is being signed and whether they fit into the team (socially and from a footy perspective), so that you don’t end up with duds. No doubt, duds are always a risk, but certainly less duds now than under Rafa - but that’s not to say Klopp is better than Rafa - but that things are better now than than as a whole, inc the guys behind the scenes,.
ps. Rafa will always be a legend in my eyes - even if he turns Everton into a competitive team and wins them silverware.
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Agree about Origi disagree about Keane. The manager tells the players what he wants from them. The player doesn’t decide. He wasn’t “shunted wide” Rafa had decided how he wanted Keane to fit in. He wasn’t playing as a winger like Ryan Babel.
Rafa moved Stevie G off to the right, he wasn’t convinced, but put up his best numbers.
The manager decides, The same as Klopp decides, the same as Pep decides. This wasn’t the same as playing Bobby Firmino as a right wing back.
Vicious, snidey? Pfft. Hyperbole? Much.
@Mascot, OK he made a peep. I wonder why? Before that? He wanted Kuyt? Are you saying Rafa shouldn’t have needed any transfer budget?
I’m not saying Rafa was perfect. Of course he had weaknesses. Shankly had weaknesses, he allowed his first great team to grow old. After he was more ruthless. Paisley was ruthless, he said a player isn’t finished when he leaves Liverpool, he’s just finished at Liverpool. Uncle Bob, ruthless. Every top class manager must be ruthless. That’s what let Roy Evans down.
Nobody is saying Rafa is perfect. It’s obvious he is stubborn and obsessive. But some of the comments on here about his time at LFC are pure rewriting history.
I mean do you really think Klopp would stand for Michael Edwards with no communication, buying a player for a position Klopp didn’t want? Because that is what is being said about Rafa’s time at Valencia.
Do you really think think Klopp would be OK with you have so much as a transfer kitty. Then when he decides on players or positions, being told, oh by the way, we forgot to mention that kitty has to include the wages.
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I think you’re using “want” a little too liberally here? He was offered Keane, and he said as long as it didn’t impede the Barry transfer. Which suggests to me that someone else was playing Football Manager, rather than Rafa actually going out and seeking his transfer.
Except he wasn’t. Our other options that season, let me refresh your memory, were Kuyt and N’Gog.
That season, Kuyt put in 12 goals and 9 assists, mostly from RW, in 3181 minutes for 151.5 minutes per goal contribution. We played Keane on his own upfront for many games that first half of the season thanks to injuries to Torres, but he was utterly useless. It was as good as playing without a striker.
David N’Gog. Not the most talented of players, but still managed 4 goal contributions in 314 minutes, for a total of 78.5 goal contributions per minute.
Let me throw in a Ryan Babel for good measure. Now I don’t remember him playing upfront for most of the season, and we can all agree he wasted much of his talent. Yet he made 3 goals and 1 assist playing 839 minutes. He is the only one whom you could possibly say was worse than Robbie Keane by far, and yet his goalscoring record was 279.7 minutes per goal (nearly par with your beloved hero), or 209.75 minutes per goal contribution for a 22 year old playing mostly on the wing.
Very disingenuous considering he came here as a 20 year old.
1 goal, no assists in 265 minutes up until 01 January 2016. He played 36 minutes against Leicester on Boxing Day 2015 when he got injured, so if you take that out, he still conveniently betters Robbie Keane’s goalscoring record in a title contender despite playing in a team that finished 8th that season. Otherwise he only barely misses it. If you factor in assists he does look worse, but for a 20 year old? I’ll forgive him for that if you don’t mind. Especially when you look at the whole picture of that season, which you again conveniently ignore.
Your speculation, that quite clearly shows your bias.
Except for most of his time here with us so far we have emphatically not been a better team than that 2008/09 team. Yet he’s still been rather consistent with his output (apart from this season), and as a younger player to boot. What does that say about Robbie Keane?
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If LFC had no money (£9 million) then Moores had no business owning LFC. Nice guy, poor custodian. Less said about Parry the better.
Quick question. Klopp announces he is leaving tomorrow. Notwithstanding the Everton situation (let’s pretend it hasn’t happened) would Rafa be top of anyone’s list for a replacement?
I can say this safe in the knowledge that I defended him him right to the very end, but he wouldn’t even be on my list. I think the game has moved on, and his best days are now 15 years ago. I also think Rafa would be like throwing a timebomb into our very well oiled football operation.
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I said earlier, he’s not what we need now. I agree with you on that point.
I still think in the right set up, he’d have his team very competitive.
I think he’d make Everton competitive but the fans won’t allow him to.
But no I wouldn’t want him as a Klopp replacement. I don’t know who I’d want. It would need to be somebody like Klopp in the sense of willing to work under the system in place.
Could it be replicated or have the stars aligned? Hard to say but I’d be more confident now than when Rafa left.
He’d be on my list above Morinho, Ancelotti, Bielsa, Brenda, Pochetino, OGS, Arteta, Nuno Espíritu Santo.
Thinking about it ZZ seems to be similar to Klopp in working with people harmoniously. Could he be a success on our budget? I don’t know.
I think Pochetino could work.
Brendan Rodgers is an interesting one. He’s a much better manager than when he left us, but still not without issues. However, if you offered me Rafa or Rodgers, I’m torn. Heart says Rafa, but think the head would say Rodgers.
Fully expecting to get a hurricane of piss for that opinion 
By the way, I think it’s going to be Ljinders or Gerrard when Klopp leaves.
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Rafa or Rodgers? Any other club you would have Rodgers, younger, more energy etc. But the best fit for LFC at the moment? Tough one.
Yes but also no.
I don’t know enough about his recent work to make an adequate judgment on where he stands now as a manager. At Newcastle he did nearly help them avoid relegation, while helping to stabilise Chelsea and Napoli (can’t pass judgment on Inter and Real). He also achieved a mid-table finish for them, but they’ve been treading water there ever since, so I’m not sure what can be said for that.
For Real Madrid, interestingly enough, Zidane, whose first tenure was regarded as such a success, achieved a 70.47% win rate, while Rafa achieved a 68.0% win rate. Right before him however, was Ancelotti with 74.79%. Zidane’s second tenure was a (relatively) paltry 60.53%.
For Napoli, it’s a little bit more of a mixed bag, since Mazzarri who preceded him obtained 48.90% win rate, albeit getting to 2nd in the Serie A before leaving. In contrast, Rafa got a 52.7% win rate over 2 seasons, but getting 3rd in his first and 5th in his second. Not sure what the context is, but Sarri who followed him, achieved 2nd, 3rd, and 2nd with an overall 66.2% win rate. Rafa however did win the Coppa Italia, the only trophy from Mazzarri winning it in 2012 to when Gattuso won it in 2020.
Is he still in that top tier of elite managers? I’m not entirely sure. But then again, I’m not entirely sure who I would consider in that tier. Jürgen has really spoiled us in that respect. I would consider him in my shortlist because very importantly, we do know that he gets the Liverpool values. His age would be a significant impediment, but then again we are probably waiting for the moment when a young forty-something year old manager would be ready to take us on, even if not Gerrard, the likes of Alonso (who’s still relatively unproven admittedly), or our own Pep.
I would not consider Rodgers however, just because of the incompatibility of values. I would not like Pochettino either, just because of the diving he seems to encourage in his players. I used to be keen on Ancelotti, but I remember reading that Bayern players were astounded at the lack of intensity in his training, especially compared to Guardiola, so perhaps not. I am intrigued by Nuno, but I don’t know enough about him. Deschamps has an interesting record, but I’m not so familiar with him either.
My personal shortlist would, apart from Rafa, skew younger because I just do not want another short-term manager. I would be hoping to get around a decade of success at least from the next managerial appointment. Ironically, how well he gets on at Everton would probably influence my thought process quite a bit.
Ain’t that the truth. Dreading the day he’s had enough.
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There are parallels to be drawn here. Late Gerard had ushered in a new way of football thinking, Rafa continued in the same vein and perfected it, relative to shoestring budget he was given. Klopp did the same years later, albeit with a quite different tactical approach and infinitely stronger support from club’s owners.
I prefer Klopp’s football over Rafa’s every day, even in hindsight. In fact, I prefer it to every other football style I’ve ever seen, but comparing their approaches to football at this point of time completely misses the point of what having both of them meant/means to us. What Rafa brought to Liverpool during his stay cannot be quantified - yes, he won some trophies but he behaved like his life depended on Liverpool’s success. Quite simply, he was one of us.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the biggest compliment I can personally pay Klopp is that I grew to love him as much as I love Rafa. Establishing that kind of bond, that level of trust and respect, really takes time and effort. It hurts that Rafa will carry over his knowledge of football and demeanour to Everton of all clubs but there are plenty of mitigating circumstances and, in the end, he deserved my blessing, all things considered. Liverpool moved on, he moved on, that’s the crux of it.
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Please don’t put that thought in my head.
This is an interesting one. While he was here Rodgers certainly had an ego around player recruitment, and did not want to work with a recruitment team.
However I think he’s probably matured a bit around this point, and he certainly works well, and seems to enjoy that work, in a similar structure at Leicester.
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I’m constantly wondering about this, in terms of what-ifs. I think one of my favourite quotations from Rafa was when he asked if he preferred to win 1-0 or 4-3, and he replied 4-0. Total football domination and demolition. What if Jürgen was in his situation in 2008/09, and what if he was our manager now, how different would they be? I have a sneaky suspicion it would be a lot smaller than most people would think. Interestingly enough, our goal difference for 2009/10 and 2020/21 are identical, just that we actually somehow scored more goals and conceded more this past season. Perhaps it’s down to our reliance on a Torres who was broken for most of that season, versus our centrebacks being broken for most of this past season.
Either way, I see Jürgen’s football as being an evolution of Rafa’s, in that they both seek to utilise the strengths of their players, but prioritise the team setup first and foremost. Defending starts from the front, and we keep a tight shape when pinned into our own half, and keep discipline. We create and exploit spaces in the opposing team by quick movement and passing, but at the same time, when the forwards fail to score we can be in trouble, especially breaking down bus-parking teams.
I’m guessing some would point towards the idea that our focus under Jürgen has been more attacking, whereas our play under Rafa was much more “defensive”. Apart from that being an illusion, given how much we’ve had a “Brexit” midfield of defensive-focused players under Jürgen, the resources they had at their disposal probably very much influenced how they played. Until Torres we didn’t really have a top-class forward to work with, whereas we managed to secure Mané quite early on in Jürgen’s tenure, even though he wasn’t exactly that finished product yet back then. In contrast, Rafa inherited Carragher and Hyypia, even though the former hadn’t played much at centre-back, but Jürgen had to build from new, inheriting Lovren, Sakho, Touré and Gomez (who hadn’t played centre-back for us yet). We had a centre-back problem even then, needing to recall Ilori and sign Caulker on loan. We did sign Matip the next season, but Lovren proved to be too unreliable for most of the time, so it was more pragmatic to just try to score more without conceding too much.
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I think for me it’s about his overall ego. Most of the managers we’ve come to love have always put the team first rather than themselves. Instead, for Rodgers it always seems to be about him first and foremost, pretty much like a less successful Mourinho.
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