Religion in all its Forms

Completely agree about the ten commandments. They are absurd in and for our time, while they probably made sense at the time.

See @Nikola, @gasband? The definition of wrongdoing is a highly philosophical, moral one, which happens to move throughout the ages. What was perfectly sound at one moment in time (ie. holding slaves) is now totally insufferable, while we commonly practice things for which we would have been condemned then, and surely will also be condemned for in a few centuries.

Just one example: holding concentration camps for billions of animals having to endure suffering of the highest grade before ending up mercilessly slaughtered. Tens of billions. For this wrongdoing alone, we all deserve to go to hell, no doubt about that.

I remember once I got a really bad school report apart Religious Education. (and the usual PE)

My dad just looked at me and said thatā€™s a really great reportā€¦ if you want to become Vicar!

Hhaha

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Theyā€™re both keenly mandated but only because it was common at the time. Written by men not by god?

In the ministry of Jesus the status of women was elevated. He was way ahead of his time on that. And in the early church women prayed in the assembly, prophesied, taught, and held leadership roles.

This is indisputable. And offered in response to Klopptimist saying women couldnā€™t teach, and then making a comparison with how that would be out of place in the modern workplace.

With regard to the subjugated role of women in society, why go to the ancient and religious world for data points? I think what you referenced was about 3000 years old.

Why not look to the modern secular world? For example, women have only been allowed to vote for 100 years. That wasnā€™t religious suppression. And in the workplace today, women are not paid as much as men and proportionately hold fewer leadership roles across most industries. Thatā€™s not religious suppression either, but is appalling.

If we had more visionaries like Jesus throughout history, empowering women instead of subjugating them, I am certain we would be in a better place.

Sorry, too tired now. Will respond tomorrow.

Key point to bear in mind though, shouldnā€™t the bible be a paragon of ethics and morality as opposed to complicit with current (2000 year old) moronic thinking?

And I agree. From a perspective of a Chinese person whose traditions and culture, I have been told countless times that if I do good I go heaven and if I do bad I go hell, I have always questioned, how on earth do you count that and if we were to really count, I think most people, if not all, would go to hell. Because telling a lie is bad, harbouring bad thoughts is bad, not appreciating my horse art is bad (or good :joy:)ā€¦so that is why I began to look to protestant christianity because I came to believe if it was based on what I doā€¦I am always destined to go to hell according to all these beliefsā€¦ so I believed in Jesus simply because He said that salvation is a gift from Him not because I have done anything great. Its not about the works. Humans will always be imperfect, some more so than others, and we will have to strive to be a better person, whether you believe in God or not, whether you believe in heaven or hell or not and so until the day we go, at least we can say we have made good use of our life.

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Sounds like a grift to me.

Sorry mate. Having bad thoughts is a sin, not that you can help that, so youā€™re going to hell. But donā€™t worry. By pledging your faith in God (and greasing the palms of the church no doubt) you can be be saved.

Honestly, the idea of ā€˜sinā€™ is one of the nastiest, more pernicious ideas ever to happen to humanity.

Weā€™re told weā€™re born with sin through no fault of our own. Weā€™re told even the thoughts we think and have no control over are sinful. And it just so happens that the answer to this problem is your devotion to the very religion thatā€™s telling you all this stuff in the first place.

Honestly, take it from someone who has been through this and came out the other side. The day you realise this whole thing is bullshit and you no longer have to live your life terrified of a celestial dictator who will punish you for ā€˜crimesā€™ he presumably designed you to commit, is a wonderful day. You walk as light as a feather.

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Elevated to what? From the level of cattle to slightly greater than cattle?

How many of Jesusā€™ disciples were women? Iā€™ll wait while you count them.

Sure. As always I said all I wanted to say. I have been a believer for 3 decades now, so I have enough experience of ups and downs to go by too. Everyone experienced life differently and I respect your experience of religion or whatever you called it but I am not here to convince anyone anyway :grimacing:

I am probably a lapsed Catholic, my beliefs were strained many years ago. I find difficulty with a church that spouts heaven and hell whilst hiding paedophiles in its ranks.

The debate is interesting though.
@RedOverTheWater has studied theology and has I would imagine a good take on the status of women in Jesus view. We can dispute this view and offer contrary evidence.
But @Mascot
You dont subscribe to the belief of Catholicism, yet your denigration of the argument on Jesus views on women is ā€œHow many of his Apostles were women?ā€
In a book written by men in a male dominated world? Maybe Paul was Pauline?
Maybe John was Joan?

Or maybe Jesus compassion for the Magdalene is a more obvious barometer?

My views on where I am with my faith or lack of it are coloured by contemporary times, not an ancient book that is at best a clumsy guidance tool rather than a blueprint for living.

I have to disagree on the ten commandments, mate. Obviously, those referring directly to God are almost certainly outdated and superfluous to non-believers but the others like ā€œyou shall not kill/steal/commit adultery/testify falselyā€ are as important as ever. Imagine the world if people obeyed those, eh, with or without the belief in God?

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Yeah, but thatā€™s kind of the point, isnā€™t it.

Itā€™s a book that was written thousands of years ago from the perspective of the (by todayā€™s standards) ethically backwards men who controlled everything at the time.

The point me and @Klopptimist are saying is maybe letā€™s not hold it up as a moral guidebook for 21st century?

Religious people get themselves trapped by the bible. They believe itā€™s holy, divinely inspired, perfect or whatever. When itā€™s pointed out that the bible is full of bad advice, horrific moral reasoning or stuff thatā€™s just absurd the answer is always ā€˜ah yes, but that bit is an allegory/meant to be viewed in context/doesnā€™t mean that, it means this.

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Did you conveniently leave out the final paragraph of my post?
I donā€™t see the Bible as a blueprint for living, we are in agreement there.

But maybe a theology student is better placed to talk on Jesus value of women?

Probably not. Itā€™s a study where people are teaching doctrine based on zero empirical evidence. So theyā€™re basically just going to go along with that teaching, no? And thatā€™s not just applicable for teachings on Christianity, theyā€™re all full of shyte.

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More on the historical sense rather than the theological sense I meant.
If we accept that Jesus existed, albeit without the Godliness bestowed on him, then we can believe his ideals were inconsistent with the times?

Wrong, my exact quote: Imagine how long Iā€™d last as a professional in the public eye if I said women should not be allowed to teach. Iā€™d be banned, cancelled and bankrupted by the end of the week.

OK, letā€™s have this right from the NIV: I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Doesnā€™t say when, doesnā€™t say where, itā€™s a blanket reference that most of us (who havenā€™t studied the bible) would agree is about as specific as itā€™s possible to be. Iā€™m sorry I donā€™t have the time to do this properly and to be fair there are a million youtube videos that better explain this than me. Being a biblical scholar does not make you exempt from being a Christian apologist, in fact one could argue it exacerbates the Dunning-Krugerisation of oneā€™s beliefs.

To the point of being taken in context, being relevant at the time, the heart of the argument. Shouldnā€™t godā€™s written handbook tell us how to live? Isnā€™t the whole thing about correcting how we conduct ourselves? If god were happy with how we were, there would be no need for a flood or for Jesus. QED the bible and biblical stories should be correcting, oh I donā€™t know, things like slavery and rampant oppression of women. The bible should tell mankind explicitly to allow women to teach, not to have slaves, not to murder the Amalachites etc otherwise, whatā€™s it for? But it doesnā€™t. Further, if JC were divine, heā€™d know that the future was going to change and sooner or later many of the teachings (if you use time as an excuse which I donā€™t, wrong then, wrong now) would be seen to be demonstrably incorrect. Thereā€™d be a biblical passage:

ā€œOne day times will change and many of teachings in the name of my father will be shown to be incorrect. Oh, and the cure for cancer isā€¦ā€

What we actually got was follow me, leave your homes and family, have no care for the morrow because times are ending and this veil of tears is at an end. JC (if he existed) was either mad or evil. As the world didnā€™t end in his apostlesā€™ lifetime (all men unless you believe Dan Brown) they were all fucked for leaving their families and jobs. Nice one JC. My point is that Jesus believed that the world was ending and it was harp playing time very soon. Otherwise heā€™d have given guidance for a future time, not just today. Heā€™d have corrected what was wrong with the teachings and practices of the time. The fact that so much of the rubbish in the bible is explained away by saying that it has to be read in the context of the time if frankly nonsense if one considers that it is inspired by a god who had his son murdered to correct the rubbish in society.

A book that is supposed to be a moral guide should by definition be moral. It isnā€™t and no amount of apologetics or red brick qualifications will make it so.

Off do do a PHD in biblical slavery, rape, murder, torture, theft and genocide. Purely from the historical context though because it was all AOK at the time and the world was about to end. Sponsored by the post hoc rationalisation foundation obviously.

Iā€™d like to thank @Noo_Noo for the recent kick to get my spelling sorted :wink:

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All good. For the record Iā€™m still struggling with the fat finger, brain, keyboard relationship myself.

Otherwise, fascinating topic this one.

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Yeah, it has certainly been an important moral compass for our societies, throughout millenaries. But nowadays, only in a general sense. If taken literally, a series of them doesnā€™t make sense anymore. Yeah, the last ones are crucial and if they came to the fore at the time, itā€™s that they were a necessity and a progress in the midst of an utterly brutal and cruel world.

In my opinion, they ought to be rejuvenated and reformulated, so they can have a universal value for everyone. The declaration of human rights tried to do this.

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The bible becomes utterly redundant if we use humanistic values to edit it. It is either the absolute word of god or it isnā€™t. If it isnā€™t then itā€™s pointless and if it is then Iā€™m clapping you in irons (and your children) and forcing you to all work 16 hours a day on my farm. Thatā€™s the simple point from this side of the fence. I stress simple, not simplistic.

Thereā€™s no progress in saying women should be silent, murdered, raped etc. Quite the opposite.

One cannot defend a book that blatantly states these things without looking a little foolish.