Religion in all its Forms

Away End - General Chat
1041

Your take on women in the Bible is inaccurate, especially in the New Testament, but you’ve provided your working, so fair enough. You cited Paul, and if taken as the whole counsel of the New Testament, I could see why you would reach the conclusion you do. Still, any Bible student would know that Paul was talking about a particular situation in Ephesus that was damaging the spread of the gospel, so he addressed it.

I can appreciate the desire for plain English to be spoken, so we all know what something says, and it is simple. But it is unrealistic to expect that. Consider, for example, the United States Constitution. Written only a couple of hundred years ago. In English. In one time and place, for one people. And it is less than 5000 words. You would think it would be clear what it says, right? Yeah right! (Extrapolate this thought out into numerous laws, rulings, judges, debate, etc.)

I’ve said my piece on the role of women. Jesus elevated women throughout his ministry, and in the early church women prayed in the assembly, prophesied, taught, and held leadership roles. It was remarkable, given the culture of the day, and way ahead of its time.

If there were more people like Jesus throughout history I think women would have received much better treatment.

As a data point for comparison, modern western secular society didn’t even grant the vote to women until 100 years ago. In terms of the freedom to run their own lives, and the ability to be represented in the making of the laws of the land and so on, women had no voice. It was appalling. And that was just 100 years ago. (I’m rounding that, as different western countries went through suffrage at slightly different times).

Updating it to today, women are still suppressed in numerous ways that are nothing to do with religion. Just limiting the observation to the workplace, women aren’t paid as much as men and are underrepresented in leadership roles in most if not all sectors. Modern western secular society very much has a blemished copy book on this issue.

Yet we are content to stick the boot in on an ancient text, and as it describes a time and place in history far removed from our own, we try to make it seem ridiculous, because… well, we are very enlightened now, aren’t we?

The debate on the role of women is just a microcosm of the wider conversation on faith and religious belief. Those issues will never be satiated in a tit for tat sort of go around on an Internet forum.

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1042

No, it’s literally and demonstrably perfectly accurate. I never understood why people who believe the bible is correct and divine spend so much time claiming that it isn’t. The quote is utterly un-ambiguous. You’re trying to argue that the book says something other than that which it does. Like arguing that Liverpool’s motto is you’ll never walk a chicken. You’re just wrong on this and I appreciate it hurts but I’m not the one defending women being silenced.

You never answered the question BTW. Is the bible the true divine word of god?

1043

@Klopptimist
Have you studied the Bible?
You are arguing with someone who has, and whilst we all nay have a view on the history or accuracy of the book, @RedOverTheWater has studied it.
We needn’t agree with the content, but lets be fair, unless you study a document you cannot really claim to know every piece of it.

1044

I’m pretty sure no one knows every piece of it.

1045

Why?
Some fans know every work of Shakespeare or Tolkien or Rowling?
All potentially longer than the Bible.

1046

Only a passing interest for 30 years…….

1047

Isn’t there a debate whether Shakespeare even existed? Anyway, I’m sure all these books of fiction have experts but to claim that they know everything about any of them would be stretching(shrinking?) the bounds of what “everything” means.

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1048

I know that’s what you think. You were crystal clear above in saying that context is not important to you. So enjoy your viewpoint.

As for your question, about the Bible being the true divine word of God, it is irrelevant to the matter in hand. You are trying to widen out the conversation to something else, but this discussion has been much tighter in scope. I participated in this part of the thread in order to comment on what you were saying about women teaching in the Bible.

I talked about the way in which Jesus treated women in his ministry. He was very much ahead of his time. I also talked about the role of women in the early church, where they prayed and prophesied in the public assembly, taught others, including men, and also held leadership roles. It was remarkable, given the culture and norms of the time. I’m satisfied to have made those basic points.

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1049

Given your redbrick education, your defence has been basic.

1050

It’s weird, the whole thing.

You start out going grrr, booo, hissss, the Bible, boooo, bastards. If I did that in my workplace I’d be sacked. Booo, hisss. That’s my summary, from reading your post when I jumped in. It was not unlike watching an Everton fan.

Who actually gives a shit if you believe in God or not? And if you think the Bible is a load of old bollocks, again, who cares? Is there anyone on here who is trying to persuade you to believe in God? And live your life by the book you are so against? The passionate defence you are putting up seems odd in the extreme.

You had a jab at the three years I spent at Uni studying this stuff, saying it was wasted time. You may be right! But since we are commenting on wasted time, how about 30 years (is that the length of time you said you had been banging on about this?) fighting against something that isn’t fighting you.

Get a grip man!

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1051

Notice how the atheists are not so keen on having an in depth go at other religions for some reason …strange that

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1052

And you still haven’t answered my question. Is the bible the divine word of god or not?

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1053

Not really. There’s no one here espousing other religions. If there were, we’d dispute them too. We mostly grew up in countries where Christianity was the major religion and thus have more experience of it.
I take issue with any religion that requires a belief in a supernatural being.
They are all equally nonsensical.

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1054

Modern secular society has done more to advance the cause of female equality in a single generation that religion achieved in thousands of years. Your whataboutery on this issue won’t cut it.

And I’d argue modern inequalities between men and women that we are are still struggling to rebalance are largely a relic of those thousands of years of religious oppression.

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1055

Which one do you want me to have a pop at? They are all batshit IMO.

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1056

The context to the conversation is that we’re talking about a book of which it’s supporters claim divinity, use to evidence the existence of a God, and suggest is a moral code still relevant today.

If it takes three years studying it at university in a theology degree to understand the bible, doesn’t that suggest God has made a bit of a hash of it?

It’s interesting to me that we even have degrees and scholars and the like telling us what God really meant to say in the bible?

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1057

When religion stops interfering in my life, then I’ll stop criticising it.

If people kept their religions to themselves then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But religions still want to proselytise, insert themselves in public life, demand exceptions to the normal rules, and claim authority over things that the have no right to.

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1058

Maybe the way to go is to have a bunch of different atheists, also provide commentary on anything the religious expert/guru is asked to comment on… I would find it interesting to see what Dawkins has to say on, well, just about anything, in a round table discussion with “gurus” from various religions. I wonder if it would be mainly just sneering or whether he would actually engage.

In the 40 years I’ve been discussing religion, in any context, I have only come across one simple point that emphasises why there can’t be a god or gods and it is the only one that would(should?) convince a reasonable believer to change.- i.e. the pain, suffering and cruelty to children that an all knowing (an merciful) god allows. After 40 years, I’m not sure what any of my conversations achieved - I haven’t become a believer and the people who believed are still believers.

I would prefer my children not to get taught RE at school (an example of government butting in) but I cannot change that. I would much rather they were taught morality, personal development, philosophy and such things. This (sort of) brings me back to the quote and my 1st paragraph, religious viewpoints are fine as long as there are view points from atheists also put across and held with equal weight.

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1059

People are studying many many subjects that have no interest to you or me.
But its their right to study whatever they want and be as passionate about it as they want.

I was brought up Catholic and was taught their doctrine. As I progressed I became extremely dubious about a lot of the teachings and actions and decided to go with my own values and spirituality. Again, personal decision.

I abhor the Irish Rosary movement utilising prayer to send their right wing message to vulnerable people.

All that said if @RedOverTheWater studies the intricacies of the Bible then he is entitled in my view to discuss Jesus attitude towards women.
Whether we agree with the overall message, he still uses this as a cogent argument, and surely that is due respect?

1060

Many of man’s greatest achievements are down to religion. From pyramids in Egypt and South America to the temples and churches in Asia and Europe.

The history of man is intertwined with religion. Both good and bad. We all know that he stories of Norse and Greek gods, the influence of gospel music, the various charities and numerous artworks. Who we are today is undoubtedly influenced by religion.

It defines our history, culture, society norms and values and for better or worse even our laws.

Terrible things are and have been done in the name of religion and I personally don’t believe in any religion. But I admire it’s achievements, it’s importance and I somewhat envy spirituality and faith others have.

As religion is so intertwined with the history of man. Man’s greatest achievements and atrocities are also intertwined. In my simplistic mental model I believe about 10% of the population are dicks. I tend to believe they would be dicks no matter what. If there had never been any religion I believe those dicks would have caused the same atrocities for pretty much the same reasons (greed, power, distrust, fear etc)

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