What I find ironic about Atheists, that’s with a big A; I don’t mean your garden variety run of the mill atheists who just don’t believe in God and if pushed for an explanation will explain perfectly validly that it’s because of all the pain and suffering in the world.
No, I mean those that seem to see it as a badge of honour. Those who take the words and teachings of a handful of men with an ulterior motive to sell millions of books, like Christopher Hitchens, and collate them…into a gospel, if you will, a mantra by which to live their life. Those who just can’t just live their lives and let others live theirs, but who see people living their best religious lives or discussing their religion and feel compelled to intervene and force these teachings on other. “You are all wrong because Hitch said this, or because Hitch said that”.
Yes, what I find ironic about these Atheists is how much of their complaint is about how religious people try and force their unwelcome opinions on others and how they mock the religious who live their life because of the teachings of an individual - Jesus said this or Buddha said that etc
So there are only two variants.
A) A tyrannical, jealous, cruel God.
B) No God.
Ok, as I’m offered these two options, I’ll take B) as well. 
I’ll justify wasps please 
Hitch is the only famous atheist in history. Well known fact that.
You’d think so the way you and mascot bang on about him, though there was also Hitler.
He was just very good at it. Matt Dilahunty is a far better case if biblical knowledge and reference is your key requirement. Now he DOES know the bible. Read it more times than me.
Out of interest, who here has read the whole bible cover to cover more than once? Any version you wish. When I started my journey away from the church, before youtube and having any knowledge of the new atheist movement, I read the Gideon bible left in the hotel cover to cover on holiday. Realised I’d never read the book that was the cornerstone of my faith (at the time). The conversation with my mum afterwards was “awkward”. I feel very sorry for her as she won’t allow herself to even consider the chance of it all not being true because her faith means so much to her and she’s convinced it’ll all be OK in the end. If we stop considering this life to be like dirty rags before the after show party, we might try to do a little better, be a little better and love a little more in the only life we know to exist.
The only good thing I see in religion is that without it, this wouldn’t exist. But when you think about it, it doesn’t mention nor require a god.
Do All the Good You Can,
By All the Means You Can,
In All the Ways You Can,
In All the Places You Can,
At All the Times You Can,
To All the People You Can,
As long as Ever …
… You Can!"
John Wesley.
It shouldn’t be anyone’s key requirement whether you believe in God or don’t believe in God. This fixation about what the bible says or doesn’t say misses the whole entire point about individual faith.
Studying the bible just so you can attempt to disparage someone’s belief is actually a pretty pitiful way to spend your time and energy.
In your opinion. If the book on which the faith is based is NOT the most important thing, then what’s the point? You either believe the bible is true or you don’t. What’s the point in a vague faith in a god somewhere if you don’t also believe what he’s supposed to have said (written by men, damn patriarchy) and what he wants us to do? If you cherry pick verses from the bible to believe in, you’re using your humanity, not your faith QED what’s the point in faith?
In my opinion, the pitiful way to live is to believe in (and fear) and spend huge amounts of time praising universe creating sky pixies when absolutely zero evidence of them exists. That’s a wasted part of life IMHO. Spending time researching, reading and discussing the subject to emancipate yourself from the hideous concept of a celestial tyranny is an excellent use of time if you once spent time (and money) on your faith.
The accumulation of wealth is the most obvious of these.
The point IS faith. Some people will believe that the gospel is truth as part of their faith, others will interpret the teachings as allegorical and something to base their faith on. Obviously that’s a concept you are unable to undestand or quantity and that is a problem for you.
Very interesting how you only ever bring Christianity and the Bible into these conversations and no other religions.
I understand it perfectly because I used to believe it. I used to be a practicing Christian, please lay off with the condescension to maintain a cordial debate.
I only ever bring up Christianity because it’s the only religion I know more than the square root of bugger all about. Would you prefer a badly informed debate about another religion?
And faith is the word people use for belief in something for which they have no proof. If you go down that line, you could believe in anything. It’s the critical thinking toolkit that’s vital here. How do I believe in as many true things as possible? Evidence.
You’re welcome to personal truths and faiths and as long as it doesn’t affect me, no problem. But if you want to engage in debate (and the evidence is that you do) don’t complain when the other side picks huge gaping chasms in the religious justifications. And don’t knock on my door unless you want to get both barrels (metaphorically speaking)
I’d rather no debate at all to be honest. Religion isn’t an argument to be won on the internet. If you have faith, you can believe in anything, a critical thinking tool-kit does not apply. Some people are religious, some are not. I’m more than comfortable with that.
It does if you want to only believe true things, those that comport with reality. If you base your beliefs of zero evidence, you could believe very bad and dangerous things. No?
In its simplest form, do you cross a road by saying a prayer then stepping out, safe in the knowledge that a god will protect you? Or do you look both ways first? You look for evidence, obviously. As the concept of a soul, a creator, the existence of an afterlife is a huge question, shouldn’t we try to answer it using that which can be proven? And don’t give me Pascal’s wager, no god is falling for that one IMHO.
One of my uncles is convinced that Jesus would forgive Hitler if he was truly sorry for his crimes. That’s just insane.
But it can’t be proven so we just go round in circles. This belief does give a lot of people great comfort though, and who are we to talk them out of that?
Good example, that.
And can do great harm too. Not having an abortion, not having a blood transfusion, suicide bombing need I go on?
I’ve never heard anybody give me a sensible reason for why they believe in god. And I’ve had this debate many times. If you’d have asked me why I believed as a kid, the answer would have been that my family and school taught me that it was absolutely true and the thing you did on Sundays. I looked beyond this, a very good thing to do IMHO.
Indeed
On this point, what are the atheist charities, and what are the good works being done… preferably on a small scale that individual atheists on here can point to?
I say that, because I know lots of people from all sorts of backgrounds, and the Christians I know are some of the most loving, giving, kind people I know. They give of their time and financial resources to help others in myriad ways, both locally and globally.
I could list example after example, both stuff I’m involved with personally, and things I am aware of.
I will limit it to one example. Last night I was in a meeting where we signed a partnership with a non-profit doing excellent work in Guatemala. Our initial commitment is to help lift a whole community in El Jicaro. This will include child sponsorship, food, education, training and job creation for the adults, with the goal of helping lift a community in dire poverty get to a self sustaining situation. It will be a long haul thing. The charity on the ground are experts and have a 30 yr track record, and the Christians I was with last night signed a legal agreement after sending a group down there to see the work. Plenty of people will give of themselves to make this happen.
I am offering this example because it is so wide of the mark to hear atheists criticize Christian people, when I’ve never seen a group more characterized by love and good deeds. Yes, for many it is a real and tangible expression of their faith… which is summarized as love God, and the best way you show that is to love people.
So, to my question.
Any of the atheists want to tell me about the good deeds you and your group/s are involved with?
It’s a genuine question, because I personally don’t see it. Unfortunatley I see a mean spirited bunch, lots of tearing down of religion, and a general sneering and nasty disposition toward the religiously persuaded.
If that’s what you’ve got, count me out. But I am open to hearing about your love and good deeds, since this is the only life we know to exist.
I think that’s a terrible point to make, because a lot of Christian charities (and I use the term loosely) have an obvious incentive to put their religion front and centre.
Hardly anyone is going to go out and say that they’re doing this because they’re atheist?
I think it’s a good point to make.
Christians are “putting their money where their mouth is” (and much more than financial resource) to help other people. It’s a good thing. I see lots of this stuff and I’m involved in it.
Atheists are saying Christians are not good people, as essentially they treat this life as a dress rehearsal for the life that is to come. It’s offensive and wide of the mark.
So I am asking a sincere question of the atheists…
What are you involved with? How are you lifting people and helping them, individually and as a group?
I’m interested to hear what you’ve got on that.