Religion in all its Forms

Oh, and since Hitchens was mentioned again, I thought atheists were supposed to be people of science and reason? He was Oxford educated and had every opportunity to avail himself of the mountain of scientific evidence out there… yet chose to smoke himself to an early grave.

If he is a prophet that is continually held up, I will give my observation on him… unscientific, boorish, given to outlandish statements to get attention, personal life a mess, brother thought he was a cock, and on and on it goes.

He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!

Again - that’s what faith is. Not needing evidence to believe. If you’ve read the bible I’m sure you’re familiar with Thomas.

If you want evidence you’re never going to get it. Other people don’t need evidence because they have faith, and that’s okay.

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I don’t think if myself as atheist, I don’t see myself as Christian at the moment because I am genuinely questioning the existence of any God.

I do a lot of charity work, I have earned large sums of money for various charities…though I am dubious about charities that subscribe to churches as they often lose the message of the charity whilst promoting the religious message.

For me being charitable isn’t connected with anything other than generosity of spirit.
Most people I know who do charitable work are doing it because they want to, not that feel obliged to by faith etc

Absolutely

If I may add one more abhorrent dictat - again from the Catholic Church -

That the church taught, in Africa, that wearing a condom is a sin. During an Aids epidemic.
How much suffering and death did that abhorrent proclamation cause?

"Science teaches us to fly
Religion teaches us to fly into buildings. "

*No idea whose quote that is - can’t remember - Stephen Fry maybe?

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No we’re not. Please tell us where we’ll have and we’ll adjust, apologise. If you’d have added the word “some” then I’d agree.

In shamanic traditions, there is the notion of ‘creating entities’ inside oneself. These ‘entities’ are either transmitted through education, society etc or created by oneself, consciously or not. During the twentieth century, C.G. Jung created the notion of archetypes, which is an occidental version of the same idea. His ideas around archetypes are absolutely brilliant. To make it short, they are ideas which exert a direct influence on us, well beyond the rational, cerebral realms of our existence, to the point that they can be considered as living, independent beings.

We have a lot of these entities or archetypes in ourself, and it’s them who regulate our inner life and our systems of belief. They will lead us to enjoy a decent, peaceful life, or on the contrary, in extreme cases, to blow ourselves up, together with twenty other people. They will lead us to like some aspects of life, and to strongly dislike others. They will lead us to waging war, to be passionate about a football team, or to create a brilliant piece of writing.

The interesting question is: are these entities real or not? If you approach the question from a logical, external point of view, the answer will be an obvious no. They are imaginary and have no reality. You can’t prove their existence.

And yet, we are heavily influenced by all kinds of archetypes. Why is that? If they had no existence, surely they couldn’t affect us in the way they do? For instance, Jesus or Buddha, or rather what they represent for each of us, are living entities inside of us and influence us in an impressive way, whether we believe in them or not. Influential artists and pieces of art, writers, politicians, scientists, saints enter inside our inner space and exert a huge influence on us, whether they are dead or alive. You can’t count all the artists past and present describing how they have been directly influenced by a spirit or a demon, the writers who say that at times, they just have to sit down at a table with a pen and sheets of paper, and to write down what is dictated to them. What are these entities, these demons, these spirits?

To come back to the thread’s topic, when someone lets the idea of God enter inside, it becomes a living entity as well, and can be directly experienced. The question is, is it our freely chosen version of God, or one which is imposed on us by a church or a religion? It’s really up to us to make this choice.

Of course, it’s also possible to reject the idea of God. In that case, there is no entity representing God, the archetype called God exerts no influence at all. It does literally not exist.

The logical conclusion is thus: when an atheist says that God doesn’t exist, he’s 100% right, no discussion there. And when someone has regular contact with a loving and lenient deity he choses to call God, his experience has full validity as well. Proof isn’t necessary, the experience can be made by anyone opening his or her mind. Isn’t that great? :smiley: :+1:

That’s also why the idea of atheism, once accepted, is a hugely freeing one for all people who have been previously dominated by a tyrannic, jealous and cruel entity called God (to take Klopptimist’s words). And let’s admit it, the idea of God as imposed on us from the outside (church, family, society etc.) is, at least in part, terrifying. Atheism is a good way to free oneself of a pre-conceived idea of God, it’s basically making tabula rasa of all the old, outdated ideas clogging up our inner space. It’s a positive thing in my book.

Once that space is freed up though, is atheism the be all and end all for all eternity? I for one try to create inside of myself an idea of God as I would like it to be, in the knowledge that it will progressively start to exist, and exert its influence on me, like a virtuous cycle.

But that’s obviously for everyone to decide for him/herself. I completely respect the atheist position, as well as those who chose to freely nurture the idea of a loving God as they have received it from their parents for instance.

An idea I can really relate to, and am thus willing to let enter my inner space, is the one wonderfully formulated by Rilke in many of his poems, that God is essentially a work under construction, and by no means the finished product yet.

I’d add that them offering aid was conditional on them not using condoms. That’s abhorrent.

But then does anybody here freely admit to being a practicing Catholic?

If you can consider them to be living independent beings and you can’t prove they exist, surly that’s cognitive dissonance?

The word ‘living’ is probably not the right one. ‘Autonomous’, as not under control of our logic consciousness?

Well it’s all pointless up until the point of death where those who believe will be “phew i knew or oh well that was wasted time”

And the others will be fucked or not

Although I do kind of find it ironic that one of the atheists believes in ghosts :joy:

someone with faith might feel a sense of serenity at that point wheras someone without might not?

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Who? I don’t believe in ghosts but I’ve seen things that some people might believe to be ghosts.

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Premier League Reaction GIF by Liverpool FC

Hope you don’t mean me! :worried:

Controllable or testable? I can invent anything I like, until I can prove it exists, I’m just making shit up surely?

CRUK, Wellcome Trust, Gates foundation or indeed most cancer (or medicine related) charities I think don’t hold a position on religion - does that make them examples of non-religious charities doing good? A lot of the work the UN does could also fall into that bracket. I’m sure there are also plenty of NGOs that do some of the things you mention and are not linked to any religion.

@RedOverTheWater Here’s a far more eloquent answer than I can give you:

Rather than just dismissing based on the speaker, what are your actual thoughts please?

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Not to mention, didn’t they teach life begins at birth until the 50s?

I know you didn’t ask me but…I agree with most of what he says here. On other things I disagree with him, like his support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. However some of his, and Dawkins, followers have the same fundamentalist, uncritical mindsets that some religious folk have

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And some haven’t.