Religion in all its Forms

Away End - General Chat
1425

Just a couple of examples:

“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16

“Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated.” Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.”
Exodus 21: 7-8

“But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.” Deuteronomy 22: 20-21

If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters." Leviticus 26:27-30

“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.” Leviticus 20:9

“I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent.” Timothy 2:11

“Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” Psalm 137:9

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1426

Yeah but none of that counts because we choose to ignore the holy word of god, which must by definition be perfect. Can we burn some witches please?

1427

Thanks for this, I’d forgotten mandated rape.

1428

On the one Christian scripture you quoted, I would recommend reading Philip Payne. There are lots of scholars who would be more egalitarian than the 1 Timothy verse appears to say, at face value, and Payne is a good one.

In that instance, the context was ancient Ephesus, and Artemis temple worship was the dominant scene in the town. Women were prominent in the cult of Artemis, as teachers, leaders, and temple prostitutes. It was an ancient fertility cult.

Many of the women were being converted to Christianity and joining the new church in Ephesus, led by Paul’s protege, Timothy.

The issue in hand was that the women hadn’t yet had an opportunity to learn, and some were being led astray by dodgy characters Paul name checks early on in his epistle. False teaching was the wider issue Paul was addressing via 1 Timothy. The women who were new converts were using their freedom as Christians to teach others, prior to having been taught themselves, and this is the thread of Paul’s argument, with verse 11 part of that.

The Apostle Paul issues a temporary restriction (the Greek reads ‘I am not currently permitting’) on the women, so that they might learn first. It sounds odd to our modern ears, but in that culture we have to remember that women didn’t usually benefit from formal education.

The command the apostle gave was for the women to learn, which in itself was quite liberating. Bottom line: learn first, then by all means, get stuck in as a teacher in the church.

One more point on that - in Paul’s other writings, women were quite free to take up their place in the church in all manner of ways in keeping with their gifting and skill set.

It’s a long post so I will limit it to one observation: when Paul wrote to the church in Rome, he name checked 28 people in chapter 16 for their outstanding work in church leadership. 10 of the 28 he named were women.

Why the big difference with Ephesus? Ancient Rome was ahead of ancient Ephesus in terms of the educational opportunities afforded to women.

Fast forward to today and simple hermeneutics would help people to sort through the context of an ancient text in an ancient time, and responsibly apply to our current situation.

A blanket prohibition on women participitating in church leadership would be a literal take on the verse you quoted, but it would be very much mistaken.

I’m certain you don’t care to wade through 700 pages, :joy: but Philip Payne has written the best single volume on this issue.

1429

Im not I agree on that part which is why I didnt take issue. Another strawmanning. Perhaps re-read my reply.

The issue is there evidently is people who take these passages seriously. They walk freely among us in Europe. Wriggle out of that one.

1430

You are so aggressive, and it’s totally unnecessary.

Are there people who take their holy book literally? Yeah, obviously. Thankfully not too many.

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1431

Interesting conversation in the second half of this episode about what is really being represented when we act out our in accordance of what we say we believe

His argument is that a key part of the bond between people into an “in-group” are the ceremonies they perform where there is common acknowledgement that it is all make believe.

When your kid makes you a cookie out of play dough in their fisher price kitchen, they expect you to play along. They get upset if you dont take it and pretend to eat it, but they get equally disturbed if you actually eat it. They know it isnt a real cookie, and they know you know it isnt a real cookie, and even as a child they can hold the seeming contradiction in their head that they want you to pretend with them but need you to also acknowledge that its fake.

His point in all of this is talk about the role of disinformation and conspiracy theories in our current lives. He argues the main value of this is to signal to other like minded people that you are part of the same group, but they dont believe it and dont expect you to think they believe it. He cites the comet ping pong pizza parlor as an illustration of this. During the 2016 campaign it came to be talked about in MAGA circles as the home base of the Clinton child trafficking ring, but there was a notable lack of action taken against them for something so reprehensible and so commonly “believed.” Yes there was the one famous incident of a guy showing up with a gun, but if people really believed what they were saying then surely there would have been more attempted interventions. His point, you weren’t supposed to actually believe it. You were supposed to just play act with like minded people to show you are part of the same group.

The implication of this theory for religion is pretty apparent. We are a species whose success is based on cooperation within societies, which requires us to be able to trust the other members of that society. The emergence of civilization presented a challenge to that because it meant societies grew beyond the point of being able to know everyone within it and we needed to develop signals that presented us as part of your in-group. There is a theory in anthropology that this is the role religion played in the mergence of civilization, and explains why there was so much cross pollination of religious practices and beliefs in polytheistic society. I may not believe in your Athena, but we’ll adopt your ceremonies worshiping her if it means you trust us enough to sell us your grain and buy our pottery.

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1432

I like this one:

Psalm 137:9 “Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!”

This one is nice as well:

Psalm 31:17 “Kill every male among the little ones, and every woman who has known a man by lying with him, but those women who have not known a man by lying with him, you may keep alive for yourselves”.

Really, the idea that Islam is somehow more violent than the ancient testament is completely warped. Let’s be honest: the holy books at the base of the three big monotheisms are all utterly violent, and you’ll find horrible stories in all three of them.

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1433

And you’ll equally find people who quote theologians who’ll dance through all kind of linguistic and interpretative hoops to excuse them. What does the book say? Kill gay people. End of story.

1434

if you look at most religions (not goin to paint them all with one brush) through my eyes, you’ll see a bunch of fabricated stories used to manipulate the masses under the guise of an all-powerful spirit who only convey their wishes to those in a position of power. How convenient (how I view Catholicism)

Take the story one step further, the word of God passes through a peasant and they hang him from the cross for being a threat to the King. (how I view Christianity)

I’ve always liked the quote from Stigmata, which I would intimate as the true meaning of Christianity

“Jesus said… the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood… and I am there, lift a stone… and you will find me.”

The 50-year-old me though…I tend to lean towards the belief of more indigenous beliefs of energy and spirit being intertwined and those who spend too much time in the concrete forests and jungles losing touch with nature…

just my 0.02 that really doesn’t matter here.

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1435

Why in the world would anyone do that when they can quote it out of context to suit whatever agenda they have?

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1436

How can quoting directly from the bible be out of context in the religion thread?

1437

Here’s your problem. If the perfect word of god needs interpreting through simple hermeneutics, god didn’t make himself clear. Not much of a god then. Or was the whole book written by men who liked tall stories and their own agenda which is why it’s so bloody horrific? Never write a vague instruction manual. Do this. then do this. then do this. The bible is VERY clear about what people should do, you can’t interpret it using “modern sensibilities” when the book tells you to murder people and rape their wives.

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1438

But wouldn’t an all powerful God have been capable of writing a text which would not be open to misinterpretation and which would be relevant at all periods of human history.
Seems God was too busy smiting and sending down plagues to work on his communication skills.

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1440

right - O. kudos

1441

As above. It was written by people, not god so why bother in the first place?

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1442

As ever, Python nail it:

1444

God seems to be quite a bit of a dicktator.

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1446

Stupid policies, stupid consequences.

And ofcourse Religion too.

1447

i suppose you have to look at it like this;

its not a direct recording of Jesus…its a documentation from scribes of the era

lets say you wrote a love letter to lucy dickinson in grade 4 telling her she was the most attractive girl to ever set foot on planet earth and youd love to be her boyfrend…and somehow, 38 years later, your wife somehow get access to the letter and files for divorce on the grounds that you lied to her for all these years…

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