There are a lot of people exactly as bad as Hitler. In the past, in the present and in the future. Hitler is just the most talked-about because he matched his period to a tee and was able to do maximum damage during his time, so he has now become a symbol for evil. In my opinion, some of the people around Hitler were exactly as bad as him, if not worse (long before him, Gengis Khan and his hordes eradicated half of Europe’s population, which isn’t bad either…).
Then, we all have little Hitlers in us, always happy to come out when a favourable situation arises for them. So, where do you draw the line? Do you only forgive someone who never killed (but maybe did other horrible things)? If that person killed one person? Two, ten, twenty?
In my opinion, there is either forgiveness for every single one of us, including Hitler, or for no-one, because we are all guilty of doing horrible things at times, if not killing human beings.
Well, I’m not in charge of the gates of heaven (should they exist) But Hitler (Godwin’s law, missed that earlier, somebody owes me a jammie dodger) murdered people on an industrial scale. Pretty much everybody on the planet is less than 1% the utter monster he was.
Yeah that’s one of the areas that Christianity lost me, amongst many others. It is simply not logical that stealing a sweet is anything akin to murder however pointing out any inconsistencies generally draws the answer that as a mortal and finite person I just don’t ‘understand’ and that the why behind my question then must naturally become moot and inconsequential. I simply think if a supernatural being on a higher plane of existence that is omnipotent and all knowing did exist, He would be rather more savvy than that analogy because He should be much more than us, not significantly sillier and petty.
Religion makes good people do evil things. If I had the ability to make a few things disappear from this world it would be religion. There is more that divides in it than brings people together. I do believe there is something beyond our explanation out there, a God. Humanity has distorted and exploited the notion for gain for thousands of years so the concept across the religious spectrums is now nothing more than manipulation. Do I believe in God, yes in a very complicated way that I am yet myself to conceptualize. Do I believe He is anything like any of the religions, especially Christianity, make him out to be. A resounding no.
Its hard I know but again from biblical perspective, God is holy and that holiness is absolute and meaning if God were to hold humans against his absolute standards, no one would ever meet those standards. And that is where Jesus came in, and story of why Jesus was sacrificed because an absolutely holy God need an absolutely pure sacrifice without blemish to take all our sins upon Him so that we can go to God through Him. Again, such perspectives will just invite ‘Pfft!’ from some but that is what it is. And honestly being ‘lost’ or confused about Christianity or God, that is fine because 30 years being a christian, I am nowhere near understanding God much. But there are also so many things in this world that we believed in that do not necessarily have absolute visible evidence in the name of science etc or whatever humans determine as evidence. But I am actually happy with my faith because I have experienced much for me to believe that God is real to me but yet do not understand so much that I can or would push it down the throats of people. My belief remains, that God willing, people will experience God in their own way in their own time.
There is a really persuasive line of argument in anthropology that says religion became as important as it is precisely because it enabled our early ancestors to identify in groups and out groups.
As a species, our success is based on cooperation and the power of the group. That requires us to be able to identify who can be trusted, and more importantly who cannot. Once civilization started to develop to the point that human encounters occurred with people outside of your core group, we needed signals to be able to make these determinations. This line thought proposes that shared religious beliefs and practices were a core element of that, meaning that you’d naturally be inclined to go and fuck up the people who worshipped differently to you and steal their shit. This is very much the same thing that is at the core of racism and pretty much all forms of prejudice. It’s part of our evolution, both biologically and culturally.
On slavery. Basically my view is slavery is obviously wrong, but the Christian Bible (not the Hebrew Bible) doesn’t address it in a moral sense, but instead just refers to it as a fact of life in the setting in which it was written. There might be some practical instruction given to people of the day living under the slavery system, such as in the verse Mascot quotes, but I think it is taking it a step too far to say the New Testament comments on the morality of slavery.
I believe God gives us gifts and abilities, so it is fine to credit him for a fixed car or a goal scored, if the person is so inclined. At the same time we have within us a desire to grow, learn, perfect, acquire new skills and so on.
So maybe properly understood it’s more of a partnership?
As for the money stuff, the usual Christian worldview is that it all ultimately belongs to God anyway, and he calls us to be managers of that which is entrusted to us. At that point charitable giving, and thanking God for the means to be able to do it, seems a good and noble thing.
Decent thread, thanks for starting it. Apologies if it looks like I am quoting Klopptimist a lot… I might be trying to engage with weeks’ worth in one short sitting, having found this.
On a personal note I try to follow Jesus. I would say I am a Christian but the problem with saying that nowadays is it conjures up all sorts of images and concepts for people. So I prefer to say I try to follow Jesus.
When I follow Jesus I am more thankful, more hopeful, more generous, more peaceful, more understanding of others, more forgiving, a better husband, a better father… Everything in life just seems to work better.
I have it in me to veer off course and even get going in the wrong direction too, but following Jesus pulls me back to the path I would hope to be on in life.
Is it fine to blame God for all the shit stuff then as well?
I always find it baffling that the Christian will stand in the shattered ruins of their house thanking their all powerful God for their survival, but not considering he might have had anything to do with sending the tornado in the first place.
Confirmation bias. A child survives a fall from a high balcony and it’s a miracle. A hideous natural disaster is nothing to do with the almighty. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses.
I was once out drinking with a group of friends after a particularly long motorcycle ride. The subject of religion came up - one of our group was a new age pastor or some such.
A question was asked of him
" What sort of fucked up being would make it so that every time you took a shit a vein in your ass would burst causing incredible pain, bleeding and discomfort? "
In fairness to the pastor he took it well. The next night he placed a tube of Anusol on the table and said " God works in mysterious ways"
I’ve been wondering this as well, which is probably why I’m following this thread with a keen interest. Surely if we go with the idea that God is the source of everything, then evil has to come from God too?
You are hitting the nail on the head with a very important issue. The question of suffering is a difficult issue for me to grapple with, as someone who believes in God. I will attempt a couple of thoughts.
First of all, there is a whole category of suffering that people directly cause in the exercise of their free will. This might be limited to personal, individual suffering (I smoked 60 a day for years, and now I have lung cancer) or the scale might be larger (I’m a leader who is drunk on power, so I’m going to invade this other country, subjugate the people and strip them of their natural resources, because I have the power to do so).
We can all give lots of examples of suffering that comes directly from people exercising their free will. Indeed, in an honest moment we have probably all suffered in this way ourselves, and we will certainly know people who have.
But what about suffering that results from natural processes, like earthquakes, wildfires, and genetic mutations?
From a scientific standpoint, the very same natural processes that cause suffering are also essential for a habitable world like ours to form, and for life to evolve so that complex creatures like ourselves can exist.
I’m reminded of the line that Morgan Freeman delivers at the end of the War of the Worlds movie:
“By the toll of a billion deaths, man had earned his immunity, his right to survive among this planet’s infinite organisms… for neither do men live or die in vain.”
