Very informative thread about the Kyiv region
Unconfirmed but…
It seems that a military area 20 km from Poland was specifically bombed. Apparently the Russians suspected that weapons supplies were being delivered there. At least that’s what i heard in our news.
That’s really close to Nato.
This is beginning to look like some dystopian nightmare now. Surreal.
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20km from Poland… One mistake and we bit goodbye to civilisation
I think recent events lend support to the argument that we don’t really have one.
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Being honest I have to wonder when rather than if other nations really get involved.
Part of me has been thinking for a while that it will be once Ukraine has spent all its resources weakening the Russian army for the West to then intervene with the benefit of massively superior force.
I’ve been wondering if there’s a red line somewhere that if crossed all hell breaks loose. But then I see that the EU have opened the doors to Ukraine membership which feels like an invite to get involved. Bit like WWE tag team.
I must admit that I am glad that the US has thus far stayed pretty passive.
It’s a desperate situation and it calls for severe compromise on both sides to prevent catastrophic escalation.
What about Russia gets Donetsk and Luhansk. They become part of Russia.
The rest of Ukraine becomes a NATO and EU member.
A lot of people will argue that it’s rewarding Russian aggression, but their primary goal was to prevent NATO and EU membership, so it would be a big compromise for them too. The end game has to be something like that because Russia will not be defeated militarily, and Ukraine will not be subjugated. Therefore both sides will have to give something.
It may take another 10 years and countless lives lost until we get to this point, but why not skip to the end?
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I met a pretty high level US army guy once. His stance was that regular wars and foreign skirmishes help to cull the useless in society (grunts) who joined the army and meant a health arms manufacturing business. At the time I assumed he was pissed and taking the piss. Years later I’m not so sure.
That’s the Military Industrial Complex. In one.
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Was it?
I think it was more to do with Odessa and Mariupol (like the Crimean penusula) cutting Ukraine off from the sea. and full subjective power over the the entire Donetsk and Luhask administrative zones in their totality. That being a minimum.
You have to be very careful what you read into what is said in politics. the Nato, EU stuff was the bravado to get something else imo.
Then there’s the problem of Russia’s greater goals like total control of the black sea and further. This will cause big tensions in the future. All this support for Ukraine isn’t for nothing there’s a lot more than many think at stake. There’s no quick easy solutions and as the lines are drawn at the moment Russia is the big winner with your compromise (and by the time it comes about they will have surrounded Odessa as well).
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How are they the winners? They don’t get the Black Sea blockade you speak of and they get another NATO/EU country on their border. I doubt any Russian would call it a victory.
Sorry but the only way this ends is Putin is ended. Personally I think the US is crazy to publicly disavow any risk of engaging Russia for fear of the nuclear option as it gives Russia carte blanche to do whatever they want. A bit of bluff and jeopardy is crucial and hanging Ukraine out to dry without airsupport isn’t going to lead to any longer term peace.
I like where you are going but any negotiated outcome where Russia gets something while the west stays out is not going to be lasting. Almost certainly Russia will then adjust its target and go again - the west can’t refuse to get involved for fear of nuclear war and expect Russia to respect borders.
If Ukraine becomes a NATO member the west would be involved as guarantors of its security.
That’s not going to happen immediately. Also what about all the other non EU or NATO members around Russia? Do we want to signal to Russia that they can do as they feel there? And it is also vital to peace in Asia that China sees that the consequences of defying the west are not worth risking.
The thing about Russia is they tell so many lies that no one really knows the truth.
NATO, Nazis, dirty bombs, genocide, birds being used as biological weapons, the evil gay community, that this is all is all a fantasy of western media or simply denying Ukraine is even a country 
They throw as much shit as they can and hopes some of it sticks.
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Well, it would be immediate from the moment the treaty was signed, and it would show that an attack on a non member of NATO is likely to result in that country joining the pact. Hardly an encouragement to Russia.
How else are we going to end this war other than with some give and take?
It’s pie in the sky to think that Russia will simply back down.
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