Ok, I don’t think Bajcetic has his own thread, so I’m going to write here.
Poor kid! He was on the verge of becoming a fixed part of the squad and then, what?
Some kind of indefinable age related injury keeps him out for a year, or maybe more?
Very difficult to get a true picture of what is going on, but it’s mysterious.
Good luck Stefan!
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Didn’t like how we looked yesterday with Mac at RCM and Jones at LCM. Wanted it to be the opposite.
Not the first time Klopp did something similar with different players in different roles, spoke about it here in the past. It’s not a major issue every time, but it is important. All part of how the team is connected.
Never got going in the first half and as Klopp said, we looked too wild, too impatient to get forward. Lacked control.
Looked better in the second half, albeit through bad luck that Trent had to go off and Jones went to RB, allowing Mac to get more on the ball at LCM.
Out of them two, Mac is more for control. And you want his stronger foot facing the game more, have more passing lanes. Been used to playing more towards the left also, for club and country.
Jones is more dynamic, can use both feet, has skills in small spaces, can beat a player and in our case, can actually provide better defensive protection for our right side balance. He’s someone who can go in other positions better than Mac.
Also, it didn’t make sense from a view that Mac usually plays deeper than Jones. Our RCM player is usually higher positioned than our LCM. It’s a more dynamic role anyway.
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I got the impression the Mac dropped deeper and that allowed him more time to read the game better position himself to affect the game.
First posted this in Klopp’s thread, but gonna put it here instead:
One thing which I simply don’t understand from Klopp in our last two games is…
How the hell did Jones, a player coming back from injury, after a first signal dreadful cameo against United, obviously lacking rhythm, deserve to takeover Mac’s left sided central midfield zone.
We put our main guy for midfield control, orchestrating from deep, connecting our play, breaking the lines, in a zone where he naturally has less influence on the game.
Why can’t Mac remain at LCM, while at RCM we pick simply between options who are most deserving to start on the day: Szobo, Jones or Elliott. We constantly lose “little partnerships” on the pitch by doing that.
One thing is to be flexible and we are, but dear me when you have someone of Mac’s level in the last month or more or so, bloody do the most we can to keep him where he’s doing that.
It’s our team dynamic for years now, that players plays sometimes higher and wider than the more “positional” LCM, allows Salah to come inside more.
It wasn’t a case of having an inexperienced right side of the pitch with the likes of Quansah, Bradley, Elliott or Gakpo on the right. Mac also had quality games at RCM (to be fair he was poor against Atalanta), he did the job.
It’s not the main or the only thing that decided our last two results, but in my books it’s not a small meaningless detail either.
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This whole obsession over who plays LCB/RCB LCM/RCM is tedious tbh, never known anyone to flag it up so often, it’s trivial stuff. If Mac and Jones are as good as everyone makes out then you should be able to perform regardless, in any team and in any set up, it’s that simple. Mac playing on the right shouldn’t hamper his ability to pass a fucking ball.
If you can’t beat fucking Palace at home when 1 of your players is playing on the opposite sides of his “preferred side” on a football pitch then you have bigger problems than you thought.
It’s not an obsession, it’s how you put the pieces together.
There’s a reason why we had the right sided triangle with Trent, Hendo and Salah over the years. Why playing Thiago for a while in spring of 2021 in that Hendo role had little sense and little result as an outcome.
There’s a reason why Xabi usually played left double pivot and Mascherano was usually the right sided one. Why Coutinho always played left sided when he was part of a midfield trio.
It matters, it’s not just throwing people on the pitch and just separate it into goalkeeper, defenders, midfielders and forwards.
It’s not the only factor where the game gets solved one way or another, but in situations without control in the last two games, you want one of your key players for control in a zone where he’s best equipped to provide it.
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Agree Zoran. More generally I’m sick of the deflection away from the players and Klopp onto fans and refs (for the last three games; I agree that over the course of the season we’ve been royally, almost systematically, cheated).
Jurgen and the players just haven’t been good enough the last three games and are looking very much like nearly men. Again. For all the lauding of the ‘almost quadruple’ we were nearly men again then in the two comps that really matter and you have to look back in disappointment that the Klopp era (given the quality of the players, how well we played and how close we were for so long) will likely only yield one PL and one European trophy.
Look back in disappointment over what we won during the Klopp era? Yes, we should have won more, and the main target for disappointment is with the authorities, who have not been strong enough to date, especially in dealing with Man City, for cheating.
In a straight and fair fight during the Klopp era, we definitely win more. My disappointment is that we have been fighting an unfair fight.
Klopp has been a breath of fresh air, and encapsulates so many things about why I love the game. He isn’t perfect, but strangely, even his - minor - flaws make me love him all the more.
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Obviously Klopp didn’t think that any of those were more deserving. You can’t blame him either because Szoboszlai has been bad recently and the drop-off with Jones on the right instead of Mac Allister would have been bigger. Elliott does deserve more time but not in a struggling midfield.
There is simply no good choice for Klopp to make here.
There was no quality reason to move Mac away from the LCM zone, where he’s naturally more able to get involved, his strongest foot facing the game, all kinds of passing lanes. In helping Endo (who struggled) when we build up, in connecting our lines, help us control the game (which we didn’t). His passing lanes are very limited when he’s at RCM, especially when we’re not compact enough and Palace are defending well in the middle of the pitch.
It’s our team dynamic for ages, sometimes with different layers, but the principles are the same. Our RCM player is usually more dynamic to allow Salah do what he does best, the LCM is more for trying to control our game and help our single pivot.
I was thinking, looking at our average position on Sunday and perhaps we were targeting to release Diaz directly on Clyne, instead of Salah in his usual role. Then have Jones at LCM what Hendo did before and Szobo usually did this season at RCM. But nah, it’s a poor argument, not enough.
I understood the reasoning when Mac had a few games at RCM when on the right side we had Quansah, Bradley, Elliott/Gakpo on the right.
I don’t understand why in the last two games, Jones started in Mac’s zone and Mac had to move. It’s a different topic whether it should’ve been Szobo, Jones, Elliott or whoever from the start.
No reason in the last two games to move our best performer from where he mostly did it. Especially not for an out of rhythm Jones (who we “have” to raise by playing him). Let Szobo and Jones battle it out more for that RCM spot.
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That’s a fair shout. Mac was doing so well that it seemed odd to move him. Perhaps he is a victim of his own success, as he has done well across the midfield, and others have slotted in accordingly? Still, I think Jones and Szobo should have been fighting it out for that slot, leaving Mac to continue to excel where he was.
With all that said, had we finished our chances better, we win handsomely, and there’s not much of a conversation to be had about how the midfielders were deployed.
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makes you wonder if we have a new body in analytics who saw something, and they pushed it forward to the training ground and it’s not working
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I don’t think so.
Klopp did similar things in the past, here and there.
I mean, he’s world class at what he does and decisions like these are only one of many that decide on the outcome in a sport that is far from exact science. But you do your best to increase your chances, what else can you do.
I remember a game against Newcastle at home a few seasons ago when we had Gini and Thiago as double pivots. We started with Thiago right sided, Gini left sided. We were 1 up, but couldn’t get our game going properly.
Something happened around the half hour mark (of course they pop up in each other zones multiple times per game), they switch sides (and then remain in those new positions) and immediately we have the best spell of the game, breaking opponent’s lines, creating openings and chances.
And that was noticeable when it was a central midfield of two players (so more “fixed” than in a three), let alone when it’s mainly three with us and you’re not a central midfielder all the time. At least not the same type as the other two. You have your role, your 2-3 players alongside you, partnerships, dynamics, movements. You have little teams within a team and we know how important that is for modern pressing sides that want to strangle you on either side, creating overloads.
Rafa used to do something odd at times, like switching the sides of Carragher (almost always the RCB) and Hyypia (almost always the LCB, unless he rarely partnered a left footer like Traore or Agger) in the final against West Ham. The argument was he wanted one to go against Harewood and the other one against Ashton (can’t remember which striker was which side). For me, that’s not enough of an argument to change something fully settled, not to mention we’re the better team that should be protagonists on the day.
And surely, strikers can adapt to that and change not even their sides more freely, but even a couple of meters here and there, half spaces (perhaps not really a thing at the time). Anyway, It didn’t look good. And as we know, Carra scored an own goal. He struggled whenever he played LCB (not many times, Skrtel was a problem there) with defending passes/crosses from his left side. Used to attack those balls first time with his right foot. Dangerous for our goal. I think 2-3 of his own goals happened in that same way.
Momo Sissoko, mostly when he partnered Xabi in a double-pivot structure. Have a guess who was almost always on which side. These are not non-important details, they matter.
Some things are just natural, it’s geometry.
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It has to be Szobo or Elliott because Jones is also weaker at RCM position.
I’m fine with that. The main point being, Mac was doing so well that moving him may have been a mistake, and then above all that, had we finished our chances, or even some of them, it would have given us 6 points and we’d be riding high at the top and the returning players would be coming back in with more of a swagger.
Elliott is a smashing player though. I’ve got a lot of time for him.
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I am increasingly of the opinion that we need a senior/dominant CM/DM in this team.
But at the same time wondering if its not an overreaction, especially given how well this MF competed in several of the top games b/4 running out of energy…
Expecting Bajcetic to go out on loan.
Theory
With the midfielders we now have we’d definitely would have struggled in Klopps midfield setup (1-2) but it might actually work with the new 2-1.
#10 we have Szoboszlai as first choice. Position might actually be perfect for Curtis. Harvey can play there and Gakpo probably too. So that position is covered.
For the double pivot we have Alexis, Gravenberch, Endo and also Curtis + Harvey.
I don’t rate Trent’s defensive work and never wanted to see him in midfield under Klopp but with the shared responsibility in the double pivot it might actually suit him.
Numbers wise we should be fine.
We can question quality and style and that’s why Slot wanted Zubimendi but we should also not act as if Endo and others don’t know how to kick a ball.
Thoughts?
Bajectic for his long term development will not get more minutes here than somewhere else but he is too good to let go now permanently. If he goes on loan, we still have 6 solid options in midfield and taking Bacjectic place in the squad getting some minutes here and there could be Nyoni so in terms of numbers we are ok and in fact, looking at our midfield, nobody can say we are not competitive to the other top teams in the PL. And if Bajectic does well this season on loan, he will have a huge role to play over Endo next season.
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I think too much is being made of the difference in the midfield setup now compared to what it was before.
For quite a lot of Klopp’s era. We did have Gini and Fab as a double pivot.
We didn’t have anyone to replace Gini with and that’s what had to lead to change in tactics.
We never played Fabinho Gini as double pivots. Thiago - fabinho double pivots in Quadruple chasing season. But before we never used double pivots.