The Central Midfield Thread

The Albert
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I would say our first choice midfield trio at least in default would be Hendo, Fabinho and Thiago this coming season. So to put into context for discussion, there would ideally be at least 3 in the squad who can step in to replace any of the 3 at any time.

Fabinho - I think Hendo has done a great job replacing Fabinho when necessary, as he always had in any position but I think Hendo is best when he is between Fabinho and the other CM and given the instruction to link up play and keep the shape and hustle opposition players and cover our players out of position.

Hendo - Gini was the one who can match Hendoā€™s industry. Thiago has the mentality but I think in terms of stamina, he is just not that. And anyways, if Thiago is instructed to play like Hendo or Gini, it takes away alot of Thiagoā€™s strengths.

Thiago - nothing to add further, we can see the qualities he has.

While I am not Klopp, although I say this is the default trio, I thought that the end season give us a glimpse how we play differently in CM, Fabinho and Thiago has more of a base and a midfielder slightly further up. Thus, I think Fabinho and Thiago and Hendo would instead be the options for the base 2 CM. And therefore I think there is a need for us to buy one more CM who can play further up. Right now that option ideally would be from Keita, Ox, Shaqiri and Jones. Jones definitely be in the mix but he should be given the space and time to develop into a world class option in another season or two. I had hoped Keita was the one when he signed but time is running out for him and I feel that mentally, he might have given up on his LFC career but lets see. Ox and Shaqiri are good players but somehow they just have that missing element to make it at a top club.

I did not forget Milner of course but he will play a more mentor/mentality leadership who can provide the body when needed.

Thus, we do need an extra CM. I would love Soumare who seems dynamic, strong and willing to run with the ball, has some skills with his feet and willing to run from midfield, seems hardworking enough. In fact, I thought he reminds me a little of why we bought Keita in the first place. But he seems to be on his way already to Leicester with a really low price of 18m. So I have no inkling who else fits into this mould.

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Just a quick question, @Flobs are you happy that Gini is (potentially) not at the club next season?

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I really like the idea of Gravenberch.

With the midfield I think we might have two set ups next season that we flick between;

Set up 1; As we know a 3 man midfield with a 6 and 2 number 8s, one slightly more defensive and one slightly more creative/offensive but still 8s and definitely not a second 6 or a 10. In this set up Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago fit like a glove. Only really Henderson can back up Fabinho though. And only Keita and Milner offer imperfect aging/injury prone cover for Henderson. Grujic at a stretch but donā€™t think the quality is there and donā€™t see him staying. Gravenberch would offer a realistic alternative to Henderson in that defensive 8 role allowing Henderson to cover/compete with Fabinho more. Heā€™d also be good emergency back up for the 6 with Milner covering the 8. The more creative/offensive 8 youā€™d have lots of options but realistically Jones would be first among them. Ox, Keita, Wilson, Woodburn, Shaqiri wouldnā€™t be needed for that and Iā€™m not sure Iā€™m seeing a midfield future for them in this set up.

Set up 2; More of a double pivot with two 6/8 hybrids deep and an 8/10 hybrid a bit more advanced. Thiago and Fabinho seem great already at starting to really form a partnership here in the pivot and Henderson makes 3 top choices for 2 positions. Adding Gravenberch would really be the icing on the cake with Milner around for emergency cover. I donā€™t see Grujic having the quality but he could be in for a shout for the 4th choice instead of the superior Gravenberch. For the more advanced option yet again we have lots of half options in Keita, Ox, Shaqiri, Wilson, Minamino and Woodburn who donā€™t really convince fully due to tactical fit, quality or availability but we do have Jones who could really shine in this area at least as the back up choice.

Me personally Iā€™d look to move on all of Keita, Ox, Shaqiri, Woodburn and also Minamino I guess with only possibly Wilson eyed as being kept as a ā€œsomething differentā€ option as he can offer a unique set of skills and be club developed which makes him a free choice on some squad lists. But heā€™d probably leave too.

Iā€™d definitely bring in a defensive 8/6 hybrid type like Gravenberch, someone younger, energetic and developing to counter balance the older, established, veterans like Thiago, Henderson and Milner in that area of the pitch (only Fabinho in his prime as the current ā€œbabyā€ is quite concerning to me).

Iā€™d also consider an 8/10 style hybrid especially if we can sell all the above and if set up 2 is going to be used a lot. If only used a bit then Jones should be fine for that. We also may still end up with one of Keita, Ox, Shaqiri or Minamino around in which case there would be no room for the new player anyway. If it were to happen though Dele Ali from Spurs would be ideal, massively underrated and a LFC fan entering his prime but doubt Levy ever sells to us. At least not for anything less than a Kings ransom.

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@AnfieldRdDreamer I think Jones is fine for an 8 particularly the more attacking role which surely in a Fabs, Thiago, Hendo midfield will be Hendos role (Jones would just be a slightly more attacking option.
Definitely need a bit more cover at DM seems to be the position we struggle the most at. Not knowing our youth situation I donā€™t want to go out on a limp but with a VVD Matip back line wouldnā€™t Clarkson be ok for a few matches?

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I think Jones is the cover for Thiago in the more technical 8, Henderson the more energetic 8 with defensive responsibility. Iā€™m sure our youth CMs have something but just not convinced itā€™s enough to be really taken into account in cover discussions yet.

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This I donā€™t see, I donā€™t see what technicality has to do with it or defensive responsibility for that matter; Bear with me, It will surely be Hendo who is going to do the Box to box stuff and getting into the opposition box at times not Thiago who will be doing the orchestrating from outside the box.
Thiago is no slouch and will be the initial ā€˜defensiveā€™ midfielder hopefully slowing the opposition down so that Hendo or Jones can get back to hassle, whilst Fabs is looking for the opportunity to tackle or create that second ball for above all Thiago to pick up.

As for our youth Iā€™ll take your judgement, with our injury record and age of Millie it seems we need a reliable option capable of taking the DM role if needed. Which is what you are saying. We also need to sell one or more of the injury prone options (which might be the real catch).

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Isnā€™t Gravenberchs agent raniola?? Not sure if the club like working with him

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So, in terms of squad composition and player types: one thing Iā€™ve been thinking about is whether the way the two 8s in our midfield play is determined by roles or other factors. Is it as simple as every midfielder being right footed, therefore doing things differently depending which side he plays; or is there a certain function Klopp wants them to perform i.e. if you play on the right this is your job, on the left this is your job?

Left side: When we have controlled possession, a common image is Robertson high and wide, Mane in the inside channel, left sided midfielder in the support/cover position - often more or less in line with the central midfielder. Itā€™s rare to see the left midfielder making forward runs or move out wide.

Right side: Different dynamic between the three players. The midfielder on this side tends to be much more involved in the final third. Sometimes positioned around the oppositionā€™s defensive line when we build attacks in the oppositionā€™s half (Salah staying wide), or making a run into the box; and sometimes going wide while Trent stays in the support position and Salah moves inside.

The reason why Iā€™ve previously thought about it being different roles/jobs is because how differently I thought Gini played the few times he got moved to the right side. Thiago as well, I donā€™t think weā€™ll see him frequently in those positions if/when heā€™s moved to the left side, assuming Henderson plays on the right of the three.

But is it as simple as being right footed vs left footed, basically the playerā€™s preferred foot dictating the offensive part of the role because of the angles he gets? And if so, it could be good to add a left footer into the midfield group, for the sake of variation in our attacks. Give Robertson the chance to go more central at times, and maybe more opportunities for Mane to get in behind the defence.

Iā€™m guessing itā€™s a pretty limited pool of players to pick from though. Fabian Ruiz andā€¦

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First of all, good to have you back. You have a tendency of disappearing from time to time, I understand. But nice to see that you return!

Itā€™s exactly the question Iā€™m thinking about for a while now, when I wrote this post in another thread (when this one was not made yet) a few months agoā€¦

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When Jones or Milner (to a lesser extent) is on the left they advance like on the right side so depends on player as well.

One bit you missed is Firmino, when the ball goes down our left he often goes very wide which we donā€™t see on the right. This is particularly noticable when Jones/Milner plays that side as they end up taking the same position hence nullifying each other. Something that needs a bit of work.

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You can say that againā€¦ Not just when it comes to midfielders but other positions as well, managers like Klopp require a specific skill set of players - though I think that foot preference maybe isnā€™t something that heā€™ll specifically look for when it comes to midfielders. I think itā€™s different with fullback and wide forward roles, though, I think that what weā€™re seeing now is his preferred scenario and that he wonā€™t deviate from it unless a major change happens (like Salah leaving, for example).

I was astonished to learn that there actually was a very small percentage of left-footed players. I canā€™t help but wonder how many of them were midfielders. That said, as a fan, Iā€™ve always admired players who can use both feet with confidence but in the end, it was never the angle of pass that mattered to me - itā€™s the fluidity (oh, I hate to see a move slowed down or disrupted because a player takes time to move the ball to his stronger foot) and set-piece ability (Shaqiri aside, I believe that this team lacks a left-footer who can pose a threat from such situations - my blood boils every time I see Salah lining up to take a free kick on the right side and while Robertson is a decent corner taker, Iā€™m never expecting anything to happen from his corners the way I do when Trent pings an in-swinging ball).

As a fan and a layman, Iā€™d like to see more control and incisiveness from Liverpoolā€™s midfield. Maybe itā€™s subjective but when Fabinho replaced Milner in the infamous ā€œHenderson, Wijnaldum, Milnerā€ trio, the team gained a new dimension in terms of control and balance and I feel we should be talking more about Fabinhoā€™s cover rather than Alcantaraā€™s and Hendersonā€™s but hey, thatā€™s me.

Alcantara should (have) be(en) a major step in that direction, weā€™ll see. Jones might be a player of that type once he grows into the role and hopefully adds a bit more dynamic to his game (his control and ball retention are really promising, he has an eye for a pass but I think he needs to improve in aspects that made Alcantara the player he is - ability to see the game a bit earlier than his opponents, position himself in the right areas and set the tempo).

Keita should have been an all-action midfielder with supreme confidence on the ball - I donā€™t expect him to fulfill his potential at Liverpool anymore. AOC was a different kind of player, he never struck me as a ā€œcontrollerā€ but he definitely should have been a game-changing midfielder. Imagine Klopp converting him into a centre forward/false nine, ehā€¦

As for the three dotsā€¦ Fabian Ruiz and Aouar? OK, heā€™s right-footed but give me a break here, Iā€™ve long run out of options. :joy: Both enjoy having the ball, both seem more inclined to play central-left, Ruiz is probably natural in a bit more reserved role, Aouar in a more advanced one. If I was playing FM with a team that needs two central midfielders, Iā€™d buy bothā€¦ Half-joking aside, Iā€™ve watched Lyon in CL last season almost exclusively because of him. At the danger of turning this into another ā€œwho would you buyā€ discussion, he very much reminds me of Iniesta at times, Iā€™d hate it if he ended up at another PL club. He has a bit of a combative presence, too, he doesnā€™t strike me as a silky playmaker-type who only plays football when his team has the ball. More importantly, he and Jones seem like a nice succession plan for Alcantara and Hendersonā€¦

Moving forward, having a dynamic midfield duo in front of a composed defensive midfielder is my general wish for this team. Zoran will disagree with me but I actually enjoy seeing Alcantara on the right because I feel that his presence there suits Trent more, I often get a feeling that opponents are easier unsettled because they tend to see that flank as overloaded by the positioning of Firmino, Trent and Salah in relation to Alcantaraā€¦ And sometimes, ā€œle wild diagonal ball to Robertson/Maneā€ can appear out of nowhere (and I hope to see more of that, itā€™s a nice weapon to have).

I wonder if there is some stat for that but it always looks to me that slower, more intricate moves are more often conducted on the right, while the counter-attacks and one-on-ones seem more successful on the left. Maybe it has more to do with differences in Trentā€™s approach to that of Robertsonā€™s, though, or maybe itā€™s because Mane prefers to dribble past people both inside and outside, while Salah tends to have a shot on goal with his stronger foot.

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I think style/skills matter much more than the foot.

What you actually see more of these days, is left footed CMā€™s or attacking midfielders who are best between the lines playing more as RCMā€™s. Think of Bernardo, Shaqiri, Iā€™m sure I saw another few at club and international level. Lefties are not always used in CM to go at LCM and attack outside, but also inside.

Itā€™s how it is, there are much more right footers and you work your way around that, depending on what you want, what you have and what you need. You have different types of righties and lefties.

I donā€™t like Thiago in this RCM role (and no, I donā€™t think itā€™s why he had certain issues, he first started as an #8, then deeper as a #6, he had very good games at RCM because a top player will manage to find a way) when he plays more advanced than LCM, because itā€™s not really what heā€™s best at. Plus, his best asset, his right foot and passing through the lines, is ā€œhiddenā€ more from the game and all those possible passing lanes. Basically Iā€™d prefer him at LCM in a more controlling role and then have a more dynamic option at RCM, who could also help out more in that sensitive zone between Trent and Salah.

Thiago at RCM as a right footer is limited to less options what to do. Itā€™s just clear to see. Forced to dribble more, play basically like an Eriksen (when Spurs used to ā€œhideā€ him in that inside right role) or more like a Chamberlain (to give two different exampls) in our own context, when heā€™s not that type of "best in the final 3rd) player. Weā€™re using him there probably because it was a way for us to squeeze him in, he remains technically an outstanding player who can create and Gini was so much used to that LCM role. It worked well in the end in our ā€œnewlyā€ constructed team as Klopp named it, but I hope we see him more at LCM next season from where he can affect games much more.

Thiago is best in that in between, but more reserved of the two (#8ā€™s) zone. Heā€™s not one for goals and assists, heā€™s one who helps between and alongside Fabinho in build up and then gets the ball accurately and with pace between the lines, out to the sides, breaks the pressure with his 1v1 ability, quick feet and little bursts of pace, allows us to either slow the game down (oh no, a forbidden word) or accelerate it.

It was so, so clear to see against Newcastle, although that day we played the double pivot with him and Gini. When Thiago was switched (I believe quite spontaneously) to LCM, it took literally seconds for him to start chopping Newcastleā€™s lines with his right foot facing the game more and having much more passing lanes and non passing lanes (the ones he can create with his feints). We played our best period in the game when he was there.

Bayern, because of Muller more than anything, almost always played a 4-2-3-1 in last years and Thiago was usually the LCM in a two. Sure, he got involved more centrally when they used to come out of defence, because it was a two, but here with us, I hope we put him back more towards that zone. His ā€œprotectionā€ is fantastic on paper, the likes of Virgil, Fabinho, Robbo and Mane behind/around him. Also someone like Bobby/Jota ahead of him.

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@norwegian_wood @Nikola @Zoran :clap:

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I can not stand Thiago as RCM as his passing to his left is abysmal (just making the point but when 2/3 (at times even more) end up behind Robbo or ManĆ© weā€™re just losing momentum). If he were LCM that just wouldnā€™t be the case. Btw Hendo is much better RCM than LCM due to his passing capabilities).
Both Hendo and particularly Trent are soo much better at whipping the ball over to the left so hopefully with a fit Hendo Thiago will go to the LCM position.
Klopps obstinate though and I have my doubts this will happen.

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@Zoran thatā€™s a great post. And thank you.

About this bit:
ā€œIn our best XI when theyā€™re all fit and available, since the spring of 2019, itā€™s been Hendo at RCM and I believe thatā€™s how we would start next season with Fabinho at the base and probably Thiago at LCM. That doesnā€™t have to be our go to central midfield in all games of course, but letā€™s say it will be our first choice from this summer onwards. The rest will depend on quality, form, style, experiences, etc.ā€

I think thatā€™s very fair to assume at the moment. Yes, perhaps the midfield spots have more room for rotation, but those three should be our big game trio next season.

Now, specifically about Thiago: when we got him I thought that left sided spot would be where he mostly played, and thatā€™s where he played away against Everton which I think is the only game they all started together in midfield this season.

One reason why Iā€™ve liked seeing Thiago on the right is that I think his style of defending is better higher up the pitch. Heā€™s very aggressive the first seconds after we lose the ball, which is logical given the teams he has played for. Good at going for the ball recovery early, but his aggression also means there will be fouls, and those are best to make high up the pitch.

I donā€™t really want him in positions where he needs to track runners too often and cover much space on his own, because he doesnā€™t have the pace for it. And given how high Robertson often stays, this is something he maybe(?) has to do more on the left than the right. The counter argument being that our left side is usually more compact than the right side, meaning less space for him to cover. And Virgil, obviously, who is almost like an extra defender.

Offensively though, having him on that side with Robertson and Mane, while also giving him the angles to plays those chipped through balls, has great potential for us. His vision and decision making on the ball is simply awesome, and I feel it took some time for the other players to realise that. Many times during the season he played that signature angled pass through midfield, only for a potential move to break down because the receiver didnā€™t control it or didnā€™t know what to do next. This was a great weapon at Bayern due to their attackersā€™ ability to combine in the final third. Hopefully itā€™s something we can make more us of next season.

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If we donā€™t sign another midfielder - which I donā€™t expect tbh.

The success of our midfield depends on two out of Hendo, Fab and Thiago being available for letā€™s say 80% of the games.

Iā€™m giving Curtis maximum 2 starts out of 5 games.

Milner one Start in 5 but in most games he would be my first midfielder to come on to give us a mentality boost.

Am too tired to talk about Keita (and Ox) at the moment.

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Neuhaus > Bissouma and cheaper.

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According to Sky Sports and the Daily Mail - United have made a move for himā€¦

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Good job theyā€™re shit sources. Would hate to see him go there- he would be everything Pogba was meant to be.

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I was like Chama Chama chamaleon~~~