Shaky start to the season and numerous injuries. Major hangover after last season.
Do we need renewal? Yes
Do we need to spend? Yes
But to say the model no longer works requires us to be mid table for a couple of seasons. And if thats what you need to prove yourself correct then there is no hope for you.
Surely the word âproneâ implies that theyâre frequent occurrences rather than just something that happens once or twice out of bad luck, or am I misunderstanding something?
Thereâs a difference between players like Sturridge, for whom it seemed like their bodies physically couldnât handle the load of top-level football anymore, compared to players like Gomez who just canât catch a break in terms of the way he accrues his injuries (basically getting battered by opponents).
Iâd argue that on his Arsenal record at least, it does seem like that for Oxlade-Chamberlain, but focusing narrowly on his time with us, heâs missed 90 games over 5 seasons (excluding his latest one because thatâs solely this incomplete season, which he could well spend completely uninjured for the rest of it, or broken completely, or somewhere in between). Thatâs around 18 games a season, or your average. But heâs also had 2 major injuries contribute to that, missing 63 games from those combined. Both of which were due to tackles (see this for the second one). Iâm not sure how much of that you can attribute to his physical condition as opposed to his bad luck, much like Jones.
Our coaching and medical teams wonât be looking at such players as âinjury-proneâ. Theyâre more likely to look at their injury history, evaluate their conditions, and then determine what they think the probability of these players staying fit is. If the causes are just bad luck, then I donât think theyâre going to be ruling a player out.
I was referring specifically to people who state it as categorical fact, not someone who caveats it as their opinion. Maybe I should clarify that I was using the first part of my post to lead on to the second, and that I did not have any specific post or person in mind at that point in time when talking about the categorical declarations.
I know a popular argument is that City played close to the same number of games that we did last season, so our injury list is more an aberration than theirs. That however neglects the fact that we did it coming off a season when much like this one, virtually everyone was broken. That compounded into last season, when we basically found ourselves out of midfielders for most of the first half of the season, although most seem to have forgotten that. It means that by the pure bad luck of that timing, we had much worse wear on the ones who did indeed play.
If you look at the perception of whose levels have dropped off the most since last season, a common recurring theme seems to be that our spine is failing. Which shouldnât be surprising to many, since those players in the spine are the same ones who played the most minutes in the last few seasons and would therefore be suffering the most from this.
I havenât read the article by Simon Hughes, but I can already see itâs been the subject of much misinterpretation and misrepresentation (not by yourself necessarily), so I will have to find time to read it myself. I am however wary of reading too much into it as my prior belief is that contrary to what many think, there isnât that much access that journalists have into the club for information, so I didnât prioritise it for reading.
What would you then say about the fact that he was indeed fit for the entirety of last season and did play substantial minutes, although very often in a more Milner-like role of fitting in everywhere? I think if we thought he wasnât good enough for us at all anymore we would have shuffled him out in the summer to bring someone in, but the coaching team thought he had something to offer us. Given what our focus seems to be now, which is involving the midfield more in creating goals, I think he has much to offer us, just like KeĂŻta.
I agree with the broad point you are making, but itâs worth remembering that Salah and Mane were signed prior to PSG fucking the transfer market.
The baseline for a forward player of their starting quality is probably about 60m now (which is what Diaz cost)
I think itâs also worth remembering that FSG will drop serious money on a player if weâre convinced itâs a transformational signing - see Alisson, Van Dijk, Nunez, Keita.
The FSG model of running the club has worked wonders,anyone who thinks theyâve done badly or got it wrong has fallen into the media trap of making you think we are on the same level as our main competitors,when financially we are almost worlds apart.
The fact that we have competed with Man Cheaty and big spenders United and Chelsea,only tells you how well theyâve done under the circumstances,itâs only now after 5/6 years of winning every trophy on offer to us,that we are seeing a drop off in competing with them,when we are in the middle of whats looking like a much needed squad rebuild,brining in youth,replacing aged nailed on starters and offloading constantly injured players.
Unless we have the funds of a Cheaty,United or Newcastle we were always going to see some kind of drop off in competing as we canât always replace top quality and world class players seamlessly in our first 11 and on the bench like they can,year on year.
It amazes me that weâve been able to do what weâve done over the last 6 years,and still be able to run the club properly and self sustained.
100%
please do, because we all should know by now that the club cannot pull unlimited wealth from thin air. If youâre the type to expect the owners to go into their own pockets every year to supplement player purchases because we arenât winning 95% of our games, then maybe youâre not supporting the right kind of club. Maybe PSG/City/Newcastle and what Romanâs Chelsea wasâŚis more your kind of club. because thatâs how they operate.
itâs incredibly hypocritical to support a club that prides itself on fair play and ethics like this club claims to, and then expect them to âfight fire with fireâ and try to play the sportswashing game.
How much did Citeh pay for Grealish, and how many minutes has he played? How many minutes has Mendy played lately?
if those type of signings happened at LFC, the fume in places like RAWK would be incendiary.
I think it must not be missed that it might simply not be a matter of not being able to compete with them spending-wise, but also that the diminishing returns of spending at the top end are quite significant. Large spends rarely have the impact hoped for, only Haaland seems to have made that much of a success with regards to that since Virgil.
Itâs a good piece that gives insight into how complicated the process of player preparation can be. In that light it is a very process focused piece, with lots of allusions to those complications, and dissatisfaction among most of their sources, being a negative thing. It leaves almost as an afterthought that the thing they all were dissatisfied with, Kornmayerâs authority, actually worked. Itâs one of those things you can really spin the take home message to fit your prior.
What a lot of people seem to have taken from it is our lack of team doctor is why weâre having injuries. That really isnât the domain of the club doctor though and itâs actually made pretty clear in the piece that it isnt so itâs a take that seems to be explained by people grasping for an easy to solve explanation for what is happening this season.
And to go back to my original point (using the article) which was an ever revolving door in the medical team seems to have caused a very unstable environment which could be a reason for the mounting injury problems weâve been having.
Not having a club doctor is just another factor of the medical set up not being a cohesive unit but certainly not the main point of focus.
I do help we can conclude our search in the World Cup period.
James Pearce said interviews are well underway and an appointment isnât far away.
I donât know. I might have to read it again, but it seemed to me the bulk of what was covering developments from previous seasons. That might be used to explain injury issues from those periods, but not now. As I said in my previous post, it seems to give very little focus to the outcome of it, that Kornmayer has established himself somewhat outside of the medical teams and has primary authority over how the players are used. The piece seems to begrudgingly acknowledge that the process their sources dont like has actually been successful and that his methods work.
It isnt stated explicitly, but what it seems to (maybe even unconsciously) point to was that in squeezing more out the group last season than most thought was possible he squeezed some past the point of return. And that is less an issue of lack of medical oversight on the physical preparation, and more the issue of burning a fire intensely makes it burn out more quickly.
This then brings us back to the conversation of player turn overâŚwe miscalculated by trying to go again with a group that has simply been squeezed too much already. Some will take issue with FSG not making the funds available to retool, but that is always done based on what the football people determine needs to be done. I struggle to see past the primary issue being a miscalculation by Klopp on how viable this group was to go again, in this weird season, on the back of last seasonâs efforts (albeit, likely influenced by what he thought of his budget).
Yes the bottom paragraph is/was my point, collectively it seems we missed in the last window. From refreshing to fitness, itâs been reported multiple times we upped the intensity again which appears to have back fired, could this be Kornmayerâs increased responsibilities finally coming back to bite us in he overpromised and broke the squadâŚ
Has he over learned the lesson that asking more from players gets more results? If heâs spent a couple of years dealing with doubts from within the club about pushing them too hard and expecting too much out them and been shown to be right, did that make him blind to the line where he was actually asking too much?
Itâs all conjecture, but if I had to put money on what the primary cause of these issues are this season Iâd put it at Klopp and Kornmayer collectively over rating their ability to get this group to rally and go again. I have absolutely no doubt at all, that had Klopp and Ward decided in April that Naby and Ox were done and Thiago and Hendo were damaged that FSG would have made sure the money was there to do something about it. That likely doesnt mean outbidding Real, but does mean our shopping would have been funded to follow a different approach than being content to wait until next year to spend the budget.
100% but impossible to ever know! Hopefully whatever did happen weâve made strong plans starting Jan to rectify.
My guess is that they decided that KeĂŻta and Oxlade-Chamberlain were going to be able to help us even out the minutes and so reduce our reliance on Fabinho, Henderson, and Thiago.
Itâs part of why I keep banging on and on about how the medical and physio teams would probably actually evaluate their physical conditions and decide based on that how much they were able to contribute. Given that one just went an entire season with 1500+ minutes without any injuries, and the other managed 2000+ minutes despite getting injured from a tackle, itâs not too far a stretch.
Having read that article, Iâm not seeing much substantive apart from innuendo about the backroom, like @Limiescouse said.
Based on what Iâve laid out above, Iâm not convinced weâll make any moves in January, unless a Diaz-like situation arises, i.e. an opportunity to get a player we want in early. Arthur ought to be back by then, and I donât think the club would be very keen on sending him back.
Plus Naby and Ox will be back to full fitness by then so we can rely on them to play heavy minutes.
Invest big money in the midfield or sell up.