Of course not. 
I agree that it is very flawed. All two party systems have these tendencies, but if you choose not to vote for the lesser evil, then you are in effect not voting against the greater evil and you contribute to the greater evil having a better shot at victory.
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I meant in that they didnāt stick with the status quo, I was not suggesting that most people had a good grasp of the issues. They didnāt and still donāt, by and large.
Thatās an interesting hypothesis, would you expand?
I am stupidā¦sorry, noā¦ I am Sparticus
damn, I never get that right
I think i posted something about it in the old threads on TIA. I will see if I can dig out the relevant articles.
Nothing too surprising. Under FPTP some peoples views become somewhat marginalised as their views donāt really align with the main parties that compete under FPTP. They then often drop out of voting in elections. As only the EU elections were PR based (in the UK), so the depth of any anti EU feeling/ concerns and other issues that could be wrapped up into an anti EU fervour were often not realised until the time of the referendum.
I suspect, many of the people who voted for Brexit, if they voted in the PR referendum at all, did so for FPTP.
Isnāt that last paragraph counterintuitive to the first?
The first paragraph makes the case for some Brexit voters feeling marginalised because their voices were not really heard in general elections because the main parties havenāt, historically, reflected their views, so under FPTP, whatās the point in engaging? It also makes the case for one reason why the strength and extent of Anti-EU sentiment was underestimated.
Surely that experience would encourage these marginalised individuals to vote for a method of electing Parliamentary representatives where their vote did matter (PR or similar)? This was their chance to change the process so their voice would be heard and yet your hypothesis would have them voting for continued disenfranchisement?
āstop calling yourself a socialist if youāre not voting for senile austerity warmonger joe bidenā
iām not convinced, sorry
i think graeber (RIP) pretty much nails keith and his democratic counterparts in the US here
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I agree, it is counterintuitive and i probably didnt word my paragraph well because that was part of the reason for its inclusion - I donāt think they saw FPTP being the issue particularly if they were believing what Parliament was delivering was because of edicts from the EU. They probably never thought PR to be a credible alternative because it receives such negative press and we hear of it more because of difficulties some countries have in reaching consensus (i.e Italy) than we do of where it works successfully, while FPTP is also a familiar and traditional cultural institution to them.
Also, as i said at the start the above is only part of the reason. Austerity and other factors (such as always holding that view while retaining an interest in politics) clearly play their part too.
The choice you have (if you like in the USA) is Biden or Trump. Sorry if you donāt like it, and to be honest I donāt either.
But letās not pretend for a second that there is no difference between them. One of those choices, while still shit, is light years better than the other.
Iām as socialist as you, but I would (if I could) vote Biden in a fucking heartbeat. It isnāt even an argument.
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From what I remember about that referendum, the Tories did a superb job of obfuscating the voting system to make people who couldnāt be arsed to engage with it think it was too hard to engage with. They also did a good job of convincing people who couldnāt be arsed to engage with it that it was just a Westminster fringe concern.
As a result only 42% of voters turned out, which is enough to make you cry just on its own.
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i think biden has more of an ideological commitment to conservatism than trump does. trump wouldnāt promise to veto m4a, heād just have to be dissuaded by the republican ghouls around him, because heās an opportunist who doesnāt care about anyone but himself
biden has been slavishly devoted to industry & the donor class his entire loathsome 50 year career. at least trump lies, biden is proud to tell you he isnāt going to do shit for you
heās running an ad with cindy mccain talking about how her dead reptile husband & biden managed to work together, as if there was a massive ideological gulf between those two racist horndog warmongers
biden will acknowledge that climate change is real while doing nothing about it, copmala will use the correct pronouns while doing nothing about killer pigs. beyond the surfaceāand i think trumpās posturing is more about making excuses for his loss than attempting to stay in powerāi donāt see that much of a difference
and biden has consistently treated people like me with nothing but seething contempt. he loves republicans and hates the left
So youād rather Trump got in again.
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The way I see it is that the US needs to get its shit together and thereās not a cat chance in hell that happens with Trump in the Whitehouse. Perhaps it doesnāt happen with Biden either but at least it gives you half a chance of moving onto something else next year. If Trump wins you have to wait another 4 years and itās likely the hole will be even deeper.
When in hole, stop digging
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The way I see it is the US politics stuff needs to get the hell out of the UK thread 
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How the f did that happen?
Oh yeah.
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If Trump wins you have to wait another 4 years and itās likely the hole will be even deeper.
biden is inheriting a cratered economy & a failed state, and is explicitly running on restoring the pre-trump status quo. largely the same policy, but with better table manners. oh and a 6-3 conservative majority on the supreme court, just in case lightning strikes and biden actually does something progressive
not hard to anticipate a massive wipeout in the 2022 midterms, and then a semi-competent borderline fascist like hawley or tucker carlson beating copmalaāclearly the anointed heir, even though she completely flopped with the publicāin 40+ states in 2024
thereās no positive outcome possible, and iām not voting for trump, either, but iām not convinced four more years of trump is worse than four years of biden, who then bequeaths the party leadership to careerist scumbags like copmala & mayor ratboy
itās like malcolm x talking about how the fox is more dangerous than the wolf because of its deceptionāafter watching pelosi and the rest of these clowns for the last four years, iāve concluded the democratic party is the fox. they work hand in hand with the republicans, imo, in a good cop/bad cop routine. theyāre not the solution, theyāre part of the problem
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Obviously the wrong thread but how do you propose that the US sorts its shit out?
Cab you the advise how we sort our shit out as well please as we have a Prime Minister with a very large Trump approved shovel in his hands and an advisor that I swear is the Star Wars Emperor in waiting. He even frequents a medieval castle FFS.
