UK Politics Thread (Part 3)

:rofl:

There are grey zones as well, not only the black-and-white you make out.

For instance, how do you explain that Sweden has a significantly higher GDP per capita and working hour output than the UK?

According to your statement above, they should be absolutely finished as a country, as no-one should be willing to get up and go to work in their well-organised welfare state.

So, maybe people want to get up and work hard as well in societies with more social equity than the UK? And maybe, enjoying more social equity motivates them even more to do that?

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Late again

Numbers are a good way of defining an issue imo.

How much does the UK spend on welfare per year?

Love to compare that figure to the value that the government paid their buddies for covid PPE and whatnots.

Meanwhile the socialist union minded binMEN in Warrington have been on strike for weeks Why? As specified.

two of you, get a fuckin room already… when did you get married :laughing:

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It’d be like The Odd Couple.

But worse.

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Shocked Sesame Street GIF

There is some detailed analysis on ONS which relates to 2017.

The welfare bill to the country was around ÂŁ260bn. But that includes a lot of things.

By far the biggest chunk of this bill is State Pensions. It accounted for ÂŁ110bn in 2017.

According to OBR in 2024 the overall Welfare Bill will grow to £290bn, and the State Pension proportion will be £125bn. They don’t have much detail beyond that, but it’s clear that the vast majority of Welfare is Pensions, and that obviously runs counter to what a many people conjure in their minds when they think of a benefit claimant.

Back to the ONS figures (it’s likely all these have increased, but the proportions will have remained the same), they have Social Services costing about £30bn, illness and disability on about £45bn, Elderly care on about £10bn, Family Benefit, Income Support and Tax Credits on about £45bn.

This last one is important because it’s specifically people who go to work and have to have the state top up their wages. That, to me is a direct policy failure, and represents all of us subsidising employers who fail to pay a living wage.

Unemployment benefit - which is what I’d suggest people automatically think about when they think about benefits - comes to around £2bn. It’s absolutely nothing compared to the rest of our welfare spending.

So there you go. I’m sure there is better data out there but it’s going to be in that ballpark.

To go back to the question you asked about whether it compares to the money the government have funnelled to their mates. If you take that £100bn of Government Waste since 2019 suggested by Best for Britain, it works out at about £25bn a year. So that doesn’t come close to the overall welfare budget (which includes things people don’t really think of as welfare) but it is certainly more than we spend on Unemployment and Elderly Care combined, it would be in the region of the social care bill, and it would make a big dent in our spending on Disability and Chronic Illness - which is the issue that sparked this whole conversation.

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Or like the time @Klopptimist suggested he’d be the Dave Lister to my Arnold Rimmer which is still one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard.

Yeah……

Thanks.
I did a quick search and came up with the info below. I haven’t verified the source as yet but something isn’t adding up to me.

UK spent ÂŁ317m on job seekers allowance this year but thats just me taking a glance and not a detailed look.

UK JSA expenditure 2023 | Statista.

Universal Credit is the main benefit. Jobseekers Allowance will most likely be people who were claiming it before Universal Credit rolled out and havent moved across yet or have been working and are claiming the credit based version.

Come on. Dave Lister would not, under any circumstances, vote Tory. Arnold Rimmer would not vote Labour. That’s the end of the argument as far as I’m concerned.

And you’d launch a leaflet campaign against a hideous aggressor and I’d go in with the guns.

ever been in a swordfight, but holding a pen?

you ARE an octopus!! I knew it

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You’ve sussed me. I’ll have to change my username to cynicaloldcephalopod.

Or COC for short.

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good film!

Tory party facing bid to bring High Court challenge over leadership election

Story by By Tom Pilgrim, PA • 36m

The Conservative Party’s refusal to give information relating to its leadership election process leaves it “wholly unaccountable” and with “untrammelled power” over the selection of a new Prime Minister, the High Court has been told.

News organisation Tortoise Media is attempting to bring a legal challenge against the political party after it declined to answer nine questions over the status and demographics of its members who chose Liz Truss as Tory leader last year.

Ms Truss was announced as leader on September 5, before being appointed as Prime Minister by the late Queen the following day without a general election being held.

Lawyers for the news outlet, which asked for the membership information in August 2022, said the decision of a “tiny minority” of voters was “one of the least democratic aspects” in the process of choosing the person to lead the Government.

The party was a “private members club” whose members were able to “wield huge power” over who took the top political position, a judge was told.

The Conservative Party opposes the bid to bring a legal challenge, arguing that the leadership election was “not the exercise of a public function or governmental power” and that the late Queen was ultimately responsible for appointing a new Prime Minister.

At a hearing in London on Thursday, Alan Payne KC, for Tortoise, told the court that its case touched on “fundamental matters of transparency and accountability” and related to “one of the least democratic aspects in the constitutional process in electing the Prime Minister”.

He said around 170,000 Tory members, when electing Ms Truss, had chosen “the individual who convention requires the monarch to appoint as prime minister”.

The barrister said the monarch’s role was “effectively a rubber stamp exercise”, and that the Conservative Party’s stance was “archaic” and “fails to reflect the significant developments over the last decade in the principle of accountability, transparency of government and the exercise of public powers”

Mr Payne said the party acknowledged the public interest in the election, adding: “Nevertheless they say, in this day and age, it is right for that process to be carried out in secret by a private members club”.

In written arguments, Mr Payne said Tortoise was not challenging the outcome of the Tory leadership election or its process.

He said: “The compelling public interest in information relating to the integrity of the election process is self-evident, for example, foreign influence, checks carried out to ensure that members are eligible to vote, confirmation as to whether members under the national voting age are able to vote in the election etc.”

Mr Payne added that “the logical consequence” of the party’s approach was that it is “wholly unaccountable for the election process” in contrast to a general election and “is free to adopt any process it chooses, secure in the knowledge that it will never have to answer to the public for errors/failures/inadequacies of the process, which culminated in the appointment of the Prime Minister”.

“For the party to have such untrammelled power is inimical to democracy and good government,” he added.

Mr Payne said Tortoise had “sought to test the safeguards” of the election and applied for party memberships for an animal, a dead person and two foreign nationals in August last year.

They all received membership numbers and were invited to leadership hustings, the court was told.

Kevin Brown, representing the Conservative Party, told the hearing that Tortoise’s challenge was “bound to fail”.

He said it would be “an extraordinary set of circumstances” if the court was to intervene over the leadership election, as the party was a private members association.

“To have external control of a political party smacks to me of a dictatorship,” he said.

Mr Brown said it was important to distinguish between the party and its members in Parliament, adding that if it was decided the election could be examined by the court, it would “open the floodgates to a whole host of potential political litigation”.

In written arguments, the barrister said the court “does not have jurisdiction” to review the party’s refusal to provide the requested information and that it would “not serve any purpose” for the case to progress.

“The election of the leader of a private unincorporated association is not the exercise of a public function or governmental power,” he said, adding that it was a “purely internal act”

“The court cannot ignore the constitutional position that the appointment of the Prime Minister is entirely within the personal prerogative powers of the monarch and the Conservative Party has no powers in this regard.”

The hearing concluded on Thursday, with Mr Justice Fordham saying he would give his ruling in writing at a later date.

Tortoise Media, which says it produces “slow news”, was co-founded by James Harding, a former BBC News director and editor of The Times.

Ms Truss, who became the shortest-serving prime minister in history after resigning after just 49 days in office, was replaced by Rishi Sunak

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I find it useful to remind myself from time to time that our current PM lost a 2 horse popularity contest, held by his buddies, to a lettuce.

Yeah that’s the shit we find ourselves in.

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