UK Politics Thread (Part 4)

If the basis of your argument is that in the UK anyone who rocks up by any means gets to stay for any reason, then you are already starting from a flawed premise.

Do not confuse the Conservative government deliberately collapsing the asylum and immigration system with there not being one.

That may be true (I personally believe you are are over intellectualising that viewpoint) but it is still a viewpoint based on a false premise.

The working class are angry because their lives are shit. There is no money. Their traditional industries have been run down and not replaced. Their health service is on its knees. They can’t get on the housing ladder. They can’t get a GP appointment. Work doesn’t pay enough to sustain a family.

These things are all true. But the people who have benefitted from the ideology that has fucked the working class, have managed to convinced the working class that the blame for this is immigration.

Of course this isn’t true. It isn’t supported by any study into immigration, and every study of immigration shows that creates an economic net gain to the country.

It is a lie that is very easy to take hold, because we are all to a greater or lesser extent, susceptible to it. We are all hardwired from our primordial past to feel more comfortable around people like us. There was once, in our distant past, an evolutionary advantage to racism. It is proving incredibly difficult to shake it off now we don’t need it any more.

No, it hasn’t. Nobody has been incarcerated for holding an anti-immigration viewpoint.

You may be getting confused here because holding an anti-immigration view can also tend to go hand in hand with inciting racial hatred, assault, criminal damage and rioting. In the case of certain individuals operating under several names, libel, contempt of court, fraud and harrassment.

The thrust of the argument here seems to be ‘We need to look after are own first”.

I find that argument misguided - there is no foreign policy, even down the things like aid and international development that doesn’t have it root in serving the interests of the British People. The only policy I can think of that can be remotely described as altruistic is Britain declaring war on Germany in 1939, which cost us our empire, our cultural and economic hegemony, and for a time our prosperity, for the sake of defeating fascism in Europe (even then there is obviously a self interest to doing so).

Immigration has been shown to bring an economic benefit to the country. But more than this, the concept of ‘the nation state’ makes increasingly less sense in a globalised world, where our economies are interconnected, the threats are without border, and the biggest challenges only surmountable through cooperation. We live in a world where the collapse of sub prime mortgages in America can result in the UK banking sector collapsing.

And please explain the concept of sovereignty to the people of Tuvalu, who’s island is disappearing beneath the waves because of the energy policies of countries thousands of miles away.

3 Likes

Yes that is the way forward. Then the left can continue a sustainable amount of humanitarian refugee inflow (which make much better long term citizens than economic migrants) while still pursuing their agenda.

Just want to comment on undocumented immigrants here. They make up 25% of the agricultural workforce, 15% of the construction workforce, 10% of the leisure industry workforce, and contribute well over $100 Billion in taxes.

They are definitely a positive force in America, and the framing - hardened criminals who are ruining our lives - is dead wrong.

Let people live and work and make their contribution. Give them a path to citizenship. Stop all the ICE crap as it is brutal and inhumane.

Yes, put loads of resources into processing people when then come in. Yes, put resources into rooting out whatever criminal element there is.

But let’s not be blind. The country would collapse without undocumented workers. That’s the big truth that is not being spoken. Welcome them. Process them. Include them.

And make America great again. :wink:

Oops, UK thread. Overlap in immigration and concerns about the home nation being changed for the worse. Maybe off topic, but I see some similarity in UK and US in this.

1 Like

There is certainly a fair bit of crossover. I frequently hear people making comments regarding the UK using US terminology which doesn’t have an equivalent in the UK. A bit like British teenagers calling the police “Feds”.

Denmark is the Social Democratic success story in recent years in Europe. They identified the problem (which was hardly constructed by the right wing as you say, but exaggerated by it) and actually dealt with it (I don’t really agree that they have right wing policies at all though; as they are merely far more conservative on that issue, in my view). Elsewhere in Europe, Social Democratic parties are declining and have lost the working class (much of it due to immigration and integration failures, although this is not the entire answer). This is certainly also true for the UK and the reason why you see UK Labour starting to look to Denmark to survive (although I don’t really like all of Starmer’s rethoric on this issue at all).

In my opinion, you are much to careless with academical terms like Left Wing and Right Wing. The Norwegian Labour Party is not Left Wing. The Danish Labour Party is not at all Left Wing and the UK Labour Party is not Left Wing. Social Democratic ideology is NOT Left Wing !!! By calling them wing incorrectly, you aid the actual Right Wing (aka nationalists or populists who surf on nationalist sentiments), who would love to campaign against Labour parties being Left Wing and so use the specter of autoritarian socialism and communism in their campaigns. Arguably however, one can say that the UK Conservative Party moved to a Right Wing position when they embraced the populism of Boris Johnson and today you have Baden-something speaking like a nationalist on TV (I doubt she is one, but the UK cons have embraced the lingo and many policies of nationalism as they too, identified the sentiment in the population, as it was no longer enough to be “Tough on Crime”)
Tradtionally, Labour parties abandoned “wing” policies a very, very long time ago and every serious modern Labour party embraces capitalism but wants a more Mixed Economy in terms of strategic industry and more regulations on capitalism than liberals wants. This is not Left Wing. Being deeply skeptical of rapid immigration and culture change, is also not “Right Wing”, it is conservative in that particular socioeconomical and sociopolitical issue. Right Wing is nationalism. These terms are very important because they have meaning. The Right Wing are Neoliberals usually today, fair enough. Neoliberals is what you usually would say US Democrats are, or liberals or conservatives in Europe. But sure, modern Nationalists tends to be Neoliberal too, due to influence from the US and libertarianism. But traditonally it is not.

But yes, it is possible to eliminate the Right Wing, but then you have to deal with the issue that is awfully difficult to deal with for internationally inclined leftists for ethical reasons; and that is rapid high immigration from foreign cultures (yes, there is a very big difference between relatively large immigration from aa country with similar culture compared to one where cultures are very different and that is kind of an elephant in the room too).

Partly because many private and public sector organisations are run like this

6 Likes

And ironically the private sector was embraced to root out ‘bureaucratic waste’; instead public sector organisations have adopted private sector bloat holus-bolus

3 Likes

I’m glad you included private in this because that is exactly what they do while carrying zero contractual risk. And they get paid for it.

And yes there are issues in the public sector.

Long winded way of saying “I agree”

1 Like

You are absolutely right about that, it lacked precision. I should have said ‘They combine an equitable and progressive social policy for the good of the majority of citizens, with a more stringent approach towards immigration, which isn’t typical for social democratic governments.’ :wink:

3 Likes

:smiley:

Touchè. Can not fault that precision. I have studied these things and probably care more than most (but I do think it’s really important). But you had me burst out laughing there. Thank you :slight_smile:

You are a fairly wonderful person, lol !

1 Like

Love this, I’m growing tired ofvthe right left thing that kinda doesn’t fit anymore. Admittedly I’m guilty as the next of using it but what else is there?

2 Likes

Left wing, left, centre left, centre, centre right, right and right wing :wink:

Also more complex ideologies like agrarianism which is a bit here and there and so on.
But I get it that in countries with very few parties, it tends to be dumbed down to left wing and right wing (US is a crown example). But in political theory (and practice) you have an array and a spectrum.

2 Likes

There is also the idea that someone who is fairly left wing in terms of economics might be quite conservative socially.

3 Likes

Yeah, that is fairly normal.

And if you want to go to absolutely extremes, you can also combine Hard Ethnic Nationalism with some popular socialism. North Korea combines nationalism with weird-ass agrarian communism (Juche) today, as another example

A lot of the old Marxist-Lenists are extremely social conservative (very anti gay, extremely anti woke etc.), as another example. They also adore hierarchy and have found Russia’s Far Right Nationalist imperialism as a new 2100 century ideal. Makes no sense, except if you consider that they are authoritarian minded and want absolutes and absolutely knee-jerk hate liberalism to the point where they will embrace anything to get back at the Anglo-Saxon Empire, as they call it. Including fascism.

2 Likes

Charge the cunts with military sabotage.
Fucking idiots.

1 Like

Charging them…would be a slap on the wrist and ‘dont do it again’..should’ve been tasered and locked up in a military prison…(my hubby says should’ve been shot)…but also on the news Palestinian flags draped all over railings in London…but we as Brits are often told we can’t fly the Union Jack as it isn’t politically correct…rule for one..rule for others…just my observation…

If you want to charge with trespass and damage go ahead. I’m sure they priced that in.

But the idea that they can be branded a terrorist group is fucking obscene. What they have done cannot in anyway be described as ‘terrorism’. We are in the realm of using the word terrorism to ban a group who are a pain in the arse, defining them out of existence. It’s Orwellian.

Their point is absolutely relevant. The Government are condemning Israel’s violence towards the Palestinians, while selling them the weapons to do it.

6 Likes

Some people are uncomfortable with the Union Flag (it’s only Jack when flying at sea :slight_smile: ) because of the imperial association, and that these days it seems to have been Co-opted by awful people.

But you are free to fly it is you wish. I can walk out of my house go for a five minute stroll and see about five of the fucking things.

3 Likes