Having two athletic midfielders behind Salah/Semenyo, Wirtz, Ekitike and Isak doesn’t sound good to me.
Again, lack of balance and control.
Just throwing athleticism is not enough.
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They would have to be able to play, first and foremost. Athleticism is not enough. But if Slot had in mind two midfielders behind that quartet, in a 4231, I don’t think Macca should be one of them, good player that he is. It should be Grav and Szobo, based on the options at the club. If Macca ended up moving, someone like Wharton or Anderson should come in to strengthen the options for the 2.
It’s speculative as to what Slot has in mind because it seems all over the place, based on what we’ve seen this season.
My hypothesis (others have said this too) is he seems caught between two stools. At that point he needs to jettison one and implement whatever it is that he has in mind. Be decisive. And go for it!
Right now the handbrake seems on, and the whole thing is way less than the sum of its parts.
Any formation isn’t good if we’re not compact enough and we aren’t.
Then, players who lack pace can struggle a bit more if the lines aren’t together enough. Not all players need to have speed, because you get a lot of midfielders for control who are not blessed with pace, but they accelerate or slow down the possession phase better than anyone else.
Mac is still a very important part of this team. Before imagining what it would look like with a different midfielder instead of him, Semenyo and what else, we’ll first have to sort out some current issues we have.
Because Slot might not survive to be part of another layer of incoming transfers if he can’t build sense and balance from this current crop.
And I don’t think we have the handbrake on, in fact, it seems the opposite to me, because we’re too wild going forward and leaking too much defensively. Not enough organization.
This is all fair enough. Slot might not survive long enough to sign, say, Semenyo and Guehi in January, if we keep losing games. It’s a precarious situation.
And yes, good point on being compact. The team has to be together, and at present it’s all over the place and the confidence is shot. When we concede a collective malaise takes over, and then the helter-skelter stuff comes in, as Slot throws on the subs with reckless abandon and there’s not a lot of measured football out there.
My main point above personnel and formation is that Slot seems caught between two stools, old and new. The longer he lingers in this space, the more likelihood he will be sacked because a new thing - a potentially very compelling new thing, is not emerging while we are in this state.
11 points behind after 12 games.
Shambles
I understand what might be the reasons why our initial press isn’t working well, we’ve added a number of new players in the forward line, some arrived in the middle of pre-season, some very late.
But if our initial press isn’t working well, it doesn’t mean we should crumble in the next lines of defence. Just look at how we conceded the corner that led to Forest’s first goal. Defensive transition all over the place.
So perhaps it’s a battle for Slot and the players perhaps between do we stick to trying to bring our press back to level, even if it takes a while still, or do we agree on pressing/defending a bit differntly, to more of a middle-block, to reduce damage, get better results, buy ourselves time for individuals to get in shape. From what I see, I think we are still wanting to press as high as possible, but what’s behind it (and also attacks) isn’t organized and compact enough.
I don’t think he’s looking at it so separately, old vs new. He simply has a squad, yes with a number of new players, out of which he needs to build an XI that has sense and balance. We will not build someting that is completely new and different to what we had, because we haven’t signed a whole new team and our principles remain the same.
So far, no, it doesn’t look like all of the main guys (old and new) can play together. And right now I’d rather he focuses on short-term, what gives us the best chance of improving results and performances, performances and results. Leave the questions how do you put certain players together on the pitch for another day in the future. It might not ever happen, that’s a realistic possibility. That’s also a question not only for Slot, but our transfer team.
In times like these, it’s very important to remain calm in the head, to have the clearest possible picture. Change needs to happen, but change is not only by changing individuals or shapes. If Slot would start changing as wildly as we agree or disagree how we would do it, he’d get completely lost in no time and then definitely lose his job.
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All good points, and it’s a tricky one. Make small changes to get a foothold, then earn the right for bigger changes as we go, whether that’s personnel, tactics, or a bit of both.
It makes sense, but the flip side might be he ends up getting sacked anyway, because the fruit from the small changes is not enough, and it sees us languishing well off the pace.
On the one hand, it’s a fascinating study in change management, and the evolution of a football team. If I could be detached it would be an interesting watch to see how it all pans out.
On the other hand, the whole thing infuriates me because I’m not a dispassionate fan, and I know we are much better than this!
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Well, whatever he is doing right now is not working. That much is clear. I’m kind of with @RedOverTheWater in that it seems Slot is stuck between old and new. The players we paid a lot of money for in the summer do not scream 4-3-3 to me. If the plan all along was to move to something else, then Slot should absolutely implement that right now. Bench players that aren’t performing. Reward the ones that are. Whatever needs to be done, because whatever he’s done just hasn’t worked. It’s as simple as that really.
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Defensively as a team you cannot disagree with what Zoran says compactness is the key.
But at times when we are compact or are in a good shape pressing and our players don’t follow a runner or one or two over commit in a challenge and allow the player on the ball to break the shape and then the opposition are running at our back 4 and then they score, Limie mentioned a prime example in the post match thread.
Macca has been guilty of this a lot this season and Ibou is doing it time after time in his ground duels against big combatative forwards but they aren’t the only one.
The questions I want to know or see, and this should be different for each game, what is the purpose of our press, to win the ball back early or to force a poor pass? where are we forcing play and to whom, where are our traps.
Look at Man City against us they offset their shape with Haaland denying a pass out to Virg and our left and allowing the ball to Ibou, they then pressed in a controlled shape and trapped us out wide where we inevitably lost the ball.
I never see this from our press, there doesn’t seem a coherent plan to how we press.
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There has been something like a 16 point swing in Arsenal’s favour in the last 7 games.
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Some phases looked low level already in pre-season, some looked good, some are still good and we have individuals that have and are still performing.
Our main shape still isn’t 4-3-3. We are still mostly in a double-pivot shape. We had a 4-3-3 shape against United and now against Forest. What was our plan in offices during summer now doesn’t count for much on the pitch, in training and games.
Again, formations and shapes don’t mean much if you’re not together in defending and attacking, compact, organized. I don’t mind it at all if we flip the 2-1 structure to a 1-2, depending on different games. Whether we will ever be able to field a team made of Szoboszlai, Wirtz, Salah, Ekitike and Isak right now interests me much less than what’s happening. So far, they cannot play together.
We haven’t even signed enough players to build something completely different to what we had, it’s impossible even. Why would we even want to do it? We didn’t need changing everything from scratch.
I’m telling you, if the plan was a diamond shape, we would’ve seen it by now. In pre-season already, let alone now when some people’s jobs might be on the line. What would we be waiting for? We wouldn’t have given Salah 2 more years, Gakpo a brand new contract, start counting on Ngumoha, kept Chiesa, etc. All wingers or wide forwards.
I know it’s not easy to understand or explain, that some people would rather now a complete reset from zero and 11 new players.
It’s not possible, it will have to be a combination of what we did well until not long ago, what we are still doing relatively well and what we absolutely need to improve.
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Of course there is also something lacking in individual battles.
Physically, I wonder whether we had a quality pre-season. Like I said, you can have good and bad pre-seasons regardless if you make 10 or 0 changes in the transfer market.
There is no golden rule to a successful pre-season, when the physical foundations for a long season is made. It’s not exact science.
Right now, we cannot change much about that. We look like a team that needs at least a mini pre-season and that’s a horrible thing to say in the first 3-4 months of the season.
We have to squeeze as much as we can (and that doesn’t mean treating them like an army) from the time they have on the pitch. Kirkby and games. Quality work.
Because who knows what kind of damage it could be between now and the end of the season.
Just want to clarify, for the avoidance of confusion, that when I refer to a new thing, I definitely do not mean 11 new players and a whole team reset.
We already refreshed the midfield. Klopp saw to that before he left. Alisson and Van Dijk are still very important for us. Half of the old team continues on. Then we added in new fullbacks, Wirtz, Ekitike and Isak. These are the new players that need to be integrated to help take the team forward.
Then beyond that moving forward, in the near future we need to sign at least one central defender, and we should be thinking about a Salah replacement/competition.
This is all just personnel stuff. The point is well made that there is lots of work to do regardless of personnel.
That’s where the main issues lies, I think.
Szobo has made himself impossible to drop, because he’s one of the best pressers in European football and our off the ball work has been bananas.
Wirtz has had a so-so time so far (let’s be really honest, albeit it’s not been as bad as his productivity in goals and assists, it’s not a start everyone imagined or hoped), but at least we know there is room for both Szobo and Wirtz, it’s not one or the other. What Wirtz can offer between the lines and showed in periods or flashes, is something we need.
Now, whether you can have a team today that has Ekitike and Isak starting (and that also depends on who is on the sides and behind them). So far, I don’t think you can. In a few weeks when Salah goes to Africa, that might be an option.
And the choice of full backs has been genuinely mind boggling to me. I would’ve understood getting one of Frimpong/Kerkez and then a more hybrid defender on the opposite site of either. But getting both, with the idea of challenging for a starting place, if not coming in immediately (which is what I think we hoped to get from Kerkez, have Bradley and Kerkez starting the season)… really weird.
That interests me even more than getting both Ekitike and Isak. I’d love to hear the explanation for Frimpong and Kerkez, considering we like variety in our build up, sometimes building with a flatter back 4, sometimes in a shape with 3, depending also on how the opposition presses (an aspect of Slot which almost everyone admired last season).
Maybe the plan was to have Kerkez/Robbo dropping more than Bradley (underlap)/Frimpong (overlap) pushing higher. Have different dynamics on Salah’s side. If it’s not building in a classic shape of 4, when we want the 3rd CB. In that case, I don’t think Kerkez is the right fit that, at least hasn’t been so far.
Is this the problem?
Maybe we are concentrating on winning the individual battle when it is the collective battle that is the most important.
Henderson was brilliant at jockeying a player or forcing play in a direction of team strength so that we could collectively win the ball, it wasn’t about him winning the ball, it was about where we as a team could win the ball.
Individual battles are important but that doesn’t always mean that you have to win the ball but more so by making your opposite number ineffective.
I feel our players over commit at times and the opposition breaks our shape.
NB. I do think the opposite happens with Virg in certain scenarios where he needs to commit and doesn’t
Yet plays Isak.
That’s why I say we need to be more compact.
Now, there is first the verbal agreement between the coaching staff and the players to do it.
Then, you first have to be physically able to do it. Question whether some can! What’s the foundation we built in pre-season like. Also some struggling either because of their styles (we all like Ekitike, but even if he’s at the top of his game right now, pressing isn’t his strong point) or fitness (Isak, who showed at Newcastle he can spearhead an aggressive press approach if he’s fit and firing). Wirtz has also showed he can struggle with the league’s physicality and intensity.
Then, understanding between players needs to be good and improve with time for it to work and become better.
I’m at least glad that we’ve gone past the theory that it’s only one of Szobo/Wirtz. Both can be on the pitch, Wirtz can defend from one of the sides and on the ball still be in basically the same zones when he plays as a #10.
No matter whether it’s 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, Ekitike or Isak up top or both, Salah or no Salah, whoever on the left side (Gakpo or Wirtz).
We. Must. Be. Compact.
Especially without the ball.
Yes, in some games (I think it was two games, United and Forest) I was surprised why he went with Isak instead of Ekitike.
I was surprised initially when he picked the team for Frankfurt, but that started badly and ended up well, so let’s call it a success from Slot.
We will also have to use Isak to get him where we want him to be in the middle of a season, it’s how it is.
Well, we’ve definitely played in a 4-4-2 shape already this season and played well. So the club buys Wirtz, Ekitike, and Isak last summer. If you are the club and Slot, what do you honestly believe the plan was/is? We still do not have anyone that Slot trusts to play on the right after Salah. That is clear since he starts every game and Slot won’t take him off the pitch despite his poor form. Where would you expect Wirtz to play? As the most advanced in a midfield 3 with two of Macca, Grav, Dom, or Jones? Maybe if Dom and Grav are in there but otherwise the balance is way off, which we have plenty of evidence of. Where would you expect Ekitike and Isak to play? You pay nearly 200M combined for them. Surely the plan isn’t to rotate those players. You want them on the pitch at the same time. You buy Kerkez and Frimpong, both of which like to get high up the pitch. I ask again, what do you honestly think the plan was? A 4-3-3? That makes zero sense. Now, we are clearly in a transition phase and this is where the stuck between old and new manifests. It isn’t working. Either go back to what worked last season with our setup- although one can argue it didn’t go well in the second half of the season- or fucking go all in on what the new vision for the squad. This caught in between thing is painful. I understand what you are saying and respect your opinion, but I see it differently than you.
In Limie’s example we were compact and other times I have seen us be compact but the player closest to the ball over commits or ends up the wrong side, the player breaks the press and we are chasing back like a Benny Hill show.
Being compact is one thing but game intellligence, coaching and a coherent plan is also a major part of it.
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