The sad thing is that we’ve ended up at the point where we actually need to do a fair bit of business in January.
We have to sign a centre back. That’s just non-negotiable. But we need wingers too. I think Dom off the right is the way to go short term, but long term he needs to be part of a two behind Wirtz.
The amount of theories right now is just… endless, it seems.
Salah’s performances being also in a small way connected to his pal Tsimikas leaving.
I wonder what will I read next.
I’d say we have a fair bit to do (most of it) on the training ground (and proving it consistently on the pitch) and of course, you always keep active if the judgement is we need more fixes in the market.
It just doesn’t work like that, that we will just coldly decide that we need a few wingers in January. It’s not realistic.
Whether Szobo will evolve into a double-pivot midfielder, instead of who and in partnership with who, time will tell. But I don’t think it needs to happen.
There’s danger of playing certain types of midfielders too deep or too high.
What’s right for the team needs to happen.
Yep 240m worth of talent doing doggies, as I commented in game, that is why their cozch mentioned he was surprised that they had time on the ball
How can you say that when the evidence was in front of our eyes.
We changed to our old 4 3 3, with Wirtz in Gakpo’s position out wide left and Szob back in the advanced 8/10 position.
This only changed when Ekitike came on.
At HT, the structure remained 4-2-3-1, but Salah in for Gakpo meant that Wirtz went from #10 to inside left, Szobo from inside right to #10. Wirtz is not tasked to play like Salah or Gakpo, if he’s playing off the right or left. Then when Ekitike came on, I thought we would go 4-4-2, but then is actually resembled like more of a 4-3-3 and Ekitike in the inside left forward role and Wirtz went to a more Coutinho left advanced #8 position.
I’m just using Szoboszlai as an example, its not my entire criticism. It’s fine to say he might have been kept there for a tactical purpose but I can only judge by what is on the field and I didn’t see any particular tactical reason for him to play there or how it impacted the game.
You highlighted the other teams who are moving players around but the difference is those teams all have established structures and patterns - it doesn’t matter that much where players are if they are just fitting into a system. By contrast we seem to still be developing a system (or as it seems to me desperately hoping one just emerges).
From a tactical perspective I’m struggling to think of anything we consistently do well. The defensive structure and system has changed multiple times such as the pressing, the center backs look confused over who is supposed to be covering them. Our usage of the FBs has been a disaster whoever plays earlier in the season we had them inverting into the attacking half-spaces where the better attacking players should be (in my opinion) and then we are baffled why they don’t play well.
I don’t see any consistent midfield emerging - there is minimal protection but also poor ball retention and no real attacking input.
The forward line has at no point looked cohesive or thought-out - which is very strange as thos was actually something I immediately praised of Slot last season as he got a much more fluid and effective attacking system than Klopp did with the same players.
I’m not saying Slot needs to go but I need to see something from the upcoming games. A vision, some patterns, some cohesion, something to show he has a path he’s trying to take us down. Right now there is just nothing. It looks like survival rather than planning.
And you mentioned fans would “lose themselves in the amount of changes they would do” but actually I think that applies to our coach. I think he came here with a vision and a plan but somewhere along the road he’s completely forgotten what it was.
So we aren’t trying to press, then change at half time to 4 3 3 and start to press.
This still can easily be done in the 4 2 3 1 we were playing and how do you expect Wirtz or Isak to perform when they spent the first 30 minutes chasing down from left to right the oppositions defenders, they’re too knackered to do anything when they receive the ball.
On the plus side they never really penetrated but neither did we in the 1st half hour. We were that deep that we couldn’t break with speed, not that we do that often anymore, and it allowed them to get into shape which we struggled to break down due to lack of conviction and urgency in our passing.
Everyone remembers that the ball travels faster than a player, not how we play at times.
This indecision from Arne is what as got me asking questions of how he is coaching us and setting us up and how we lack any urgency and direction when in possession. When he firtst came in last season, he was decisive in his decisions and little tweaks.
It seems teams have worked his tactics out and he is struggling to adapt.
Although, whatever he does, isn’t helped by the fall off form by the majority of the team and the consistent individual errors and focus of players in the defensive phase.
Last summer I read that we were changing our marking/ defensive system. Do you know if we have reverted back to what we used last year and just doing it poorly or could this system change be one of the issues affecting us still?
No it didn’t remain as 4 2 3 1 it reverted back to 4 3 3 and yet he did play like Gakpo, it is what happened and the area of the pitch he occupied, how do you know the instructions he got!
The circumstance is such that we decided for Gomez from the start in the last two games and Slot confirmed post-West Ham that playing Szobo inside right (instead of Wirtz for example, like he did in Frankfurt when Frimpong started at RB), was to protect Joe.
We can tell the stylistical difference if we use the likes of Salah and Gakpo on the sides from the likes of Wirtz and Szobo. If it’s Wirtz or Szobo on the day, I don’t mind it too much at the moment. For me, we don’t have to always play with two wingers.
If the system in your book is a formation, I’m fine with our formation(s). It’s the phases of play that bother me ever since pre-season and since then, some things remained and got worse. Pressing from the front, defensive transition, set-pieces, build up (that got worse as teams let go some of the respect for us and scanned us more).
We still create a good amount of chances, but it’s also pretty wild and not compact or organized enough to regain the ball when we lose it.
Our choice of players who we signed with the idea of using them at full back bothers me more than what we’ve seen on the pitch from the as a result. I’m not surprised. Last season Slot said he likes a back 4 more close to each other than previously, especially when we build up. Sometimes we built with 4, sometimes with one full back going higher and the other one tucking to create a shape of 3. We signed two very wild players and so far this season tried different combinations.
I guess the plan might have been to use Kerkez or Robbo tucking in more on the left and Bradley (more underlap in attack) or Frimpong (more overlap in attack) released on the opposite side, to give new and different dynamics around Salah. But plan is one thing and what we see on the pitch is another thing.
Whether we had a different plan in mind how to use our full backs this season (surely there has to be more than one way because Slot likes to vary his build up depending also on how the opposition presses), I don’t know. Whether we believed that these players can learn new ways, that’s also possible. I’m just not sold on it.
The forward area carries different issues of certain players arriving late, relatively late, defending off the ball not being one of their strengths in general (Ekitike). Some of them being completely unfit (Isak). Some feeling the intensity and physicality of this league (Wirtz). Gakpo’s aggression was also never really a strength of his, despite being tall. Salah was always our little ‘special’ player who we camouflaged (by large successfully) in defensive phases of the game.
I can’t say to the club, well then you shouldn’t have signed those players. Even if I had a lot of questions over getting both Ekitike and Isak. But it’s the circumstance how it went this summer, that’s it. So these are in general questions for all of them decision makers.
When’s the last time you saw something you want to see? So I can get an example.
I don’t think he forgot his principles, but it’s true that since pre-season we haven’t looked good and it’s now big pressure with not a lot of training time available. I said a few times that we look like a team that needs at least a mini pre-season and that’s not a good thing to say in the first few months of the season.
We turned to a (pretty wild at that period of the game) 4-3-3 when Ekitike came on. The structure was the same, trying to use a box-shape midfield, but just with one winger replacing another. Wirtz tries to combine inside regardless if he’s playing off the sides or as the single #10. Whether he succeeds at it or not, depends on a few things. Like the team.
I don’t mind those changes (different combinations with a winger and an extra attacking midfielder on either side), the only surprise to me was that I thought we would go 4-4-2 when Ekitike came on and Isak was still on the pitch.
But when I say surprise, it’s not why we failed to win.
The return of Lovren to fill the centre half birth we desperately need to address and keep Mo happy.
Its a theory…
This table is a good illustration of arbitrarily taking a sample to skew a point. For example, take the first 5 games of the season and you would almost see a complete reversal between Liverpool and Villa, as Liverpool were top and Villa were in the bottom three.
We all know we are struggling this season, but at least show the proper table to give us an accurate perspective.
It’s not pretty, but at the time of writing it has us 8th, not 17th, and 2 points behind 4th spot, or 1 point behind 5th spot, assuming the CL places go that deep this season.
Which personally I find confusing because Gomez is someone who needs less protection than the other RB options.
I thought I was being pretty clear that I am annoyed with the style not the formation. I don’t really care about a formation that much, in most cases it is a matter of a few meters. What I care about is things like having Salah and Gakpo welded to the touchline while Kerkez and Bradley run into the inside channels or to the penalty area. That making zero sense to me. Salah and Gakpo can both play closer to goal I don’t believe that’s just who they are as players.
So yes our pressing, our defensive transition, set-pieces, build up - I agree I am bothered by all of it. It’s fucking shit. I can’t tell you what our pressing plan is, we don’t appear to have one. We simply don’t react to transition situations. Set-pieces have been diabolical since Slot came in to be honest just not a strength of his or his staff. The worst is the build up play, absolutely nothing is working or appears to be being worked on. Isak and Ekitike have both struggled to get involved in the game because nothing behind them is working well.
Agreed I’m not sold on it either and I don’t like signing players then telling them to change pretty much everythin about how they play. Kerkez, Bradley Frimpong and Robertson (to a lesser extent thesedays) are at their best bombing down the line and providing width. How many times have they been allowed to do that? It always seems to be coming inside, negating their best assets.
With this squad? Still waiting. I loved the way the frontline worked together last season especially early in the season. They had clear roles but were flexible too. They played as a unit. Slot brought that out of them so he’s capable of it but I don’t see anything resembling that right now.
For this coach maybe they shouldn’t have. That’s why I doubt these signings were “his”. No doubt he gave his OK to them but they were signed for him not by him. I would have thought that they were brought in with a plan on how to use them but increasingly it seems like we’ve bought them, or at least some of them, and said “make it work”. Trying to give Slot a bit of a break here.
I don’t actually think we signed players thinking of the next coach, that’s just the little conspiratorial voice in my head, but I do think we signed players with little regard for how they would be integrated. How else do you end up signing Kerkez and Frimpong for a coach who doesn’t want wing-backs, or Isak and Ekitike for a coach who uses one CF and prefers to have his wide attackers really, really wide.
So if I’m giving him a little bit of a respite from the criticism I’ll say the squad composition is probably not his fault. He should have figured out a better way to use it though.
It looks to me as though we might be moving to a 4231 from a 433. Too early to draw a definitive conclusion, but as I’m trying to make sense of what we look like we are trying to do, that’s what I see.
I back it, and I hope Slot can get it working well, but right now there are issues.
If Isak is the striker up top, we need to find a way for him to not be so isolated. He barely touched the ball in the second half against Sunderland. It seems to me that Wirtz must be the advanced midfielder behind him, pulling the strings and giving the team its tempo.
It needs a double picot behind Wirtz for solidity. I’m not sure Macca should be one of those players. His form isn’t great - not the only one there, but I think we need a bit more athleticism than he offers, and I would go with Grav and Szobo - but they would need to be disciplined in keeping the shape.
On the wings we need more. Salah is not what he was and we need an upgrade. On the other side Gakpo is ok, but he’s not elite. Arguably Ekitike could do one of the roles as an inside forward, and I’d like to see us try that, because it could possibly have a lot of upside. We definitely need to sign a good winger who should be placed to come in and do well right away. Maybe Semenyo with his release clause?
We are struggling in central defence. We probably need to sign two central defenders, and definitely one of them in January. Konate has been off form and Virg is showing he is past his best. I think Virg has more to give, but he is at the stage where he is not superhuman. If he had a reliable partner I think he would settle down a bit and show good form, though he is past the point of being able to do someone else’s job, as well as his own. We’ve been spoiled, but those days are gone.
The fullbacks have been all over the place with fitness and form issues, but hopefully that will settle down and we will see them giving some width to the side, hopefully more on the overlap than the underlap.
4231 seems like it might be what Slot is moving towards, and if so, Guehi and Semenyo in January make a heck of a lot of sense.
No we went 4 3 3 at half time when Mo came on, it was obvious and he was wide left for the most part until Hugo came on.
I can’t believe you are arguing differently, I even posted in the in game thread the change in Wirtz’s position and how he was isolated out left, RER even mentioned where is Wirtz.
Then when Hugo came on Wirtz shifted inside again and we stepped up because he was linking play again on both sides.
Last post on this aspect.
Before getting back to work I just want to say I think Slot gets the rest of the season to see if he can turn it around and get a tune out of the great players we have.
We won’t let it completely fall apart and drift toward relegation without acting, but I don’t think it will come to that. My best guess is that Slot will be safe until finishing in the CL spots becomes mathematically impossible.
If that point comes to a head late in the season, he will probably finish the season, but if we finish in a lesser European spot I think he will be let go.
He should rightly be feeling the pressure, as there is a lot of work to do. There’s also a lot of time to improve.
