Love you, @Bonus, but I don’t think the joke works - contextually, like.
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Fabinho Hendo and Gini was our best midfield trio in the PL era I dare say. Not the most talented but by far the best well drilled unit and a testament that discipline and hardwork can trump talents.
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Alonso, Gerrard, and Mascherano disagree.
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Fantastic talents, best we had in a long time but as an unit never looked as well drilled like the one put together by Klopp
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I don’t think midfield was the issue in 08/09.
Riera, Yossi, Dirk, Babel - those were issues.
When Mascherano played well, the team played well. Same with Stevie.
Xabi was an outdated player who only really performed in two of his four years in Liverpool, and one of those is because he knew Rafa was going to get rid.
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That midfield was quality. The spine of that team was quality.
It needed (I mean in general, not only 08/09 when we did a lot of things well, but details took it away from us) a combination of the following: more 1v1 ability and matchwinning quality off the sides, more skill between the lines, someone who we could partner Torres with in “smaller” games and also play when he wasn’t available (hence why we were bringing such players and were also linked with others), perhaps Rafa also letting the team play a bit more offensive at times.
I don’t agree on Xabi though, he was very important in us finally putting the ball on the floor more and orchestrating from deep when Rafa arrived. Our whole game became more sophisticated and less wild. He had a weaker season in 07/08, missing some parts, etc. But a very important player nonetheless.
What I would say though is that the midfield trio, in that structure, possibly didn’t have a long expiry date, if we wanted to win regularly (I mean, we didn’t win since '06 anyway, but I agree the midfield certainly wasn’t the issue, it was one of the main reasons). Switching it with time to more of a 4-3-3 would’ve possibly been a solution to get even more from them, even if it meant changing a player (like replacing Xabi).
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Not to be pedantic but he spent five seasons here and was class in the first two and his last as well. Those in between, well… But on the whole, he was a really good player for us. I find it strange you called him outdated, though.
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The first eleven was the best we had before Klopp. There weren’t many options from the bench though and fitness issues were never far away, particularly for Torres.
I still think that had Torres managed to play a few more games, we would have won in 2009, even with the mancs being absurdly lucky and also being blatantly helped by the refs.
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Kiko Macheda practically got them over the line and promptly faded into obscurity
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Fabinho, Hendo, Gini v Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano?
Obviously you would go with the latter collection of world class talent, which is not to say that the former trio are yard dogs. They were all very good players, but the point is well made that working as well drilled unit, playing to your strengths, closes the gap.
Edit
And to my mind I would put a peak Fabinho in there above a peak Mascherano, for the best combo.
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I understand what you’re saying but that wouldn’t work because Masch covered a LOT of ground to allow Xabi to play like he did. Fab went mostly side to side.
Maybe Xabi could have adopted his style to match.
I think the second trio in their prime in front of prime Mane Bobby Mo would give us the edge to steamroll any team in the Klopp era. Multiple PLs and CLs. Back to back
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What needs factoring in here, a lot of the players mentioned, didn’t have Jurgen inspiring them behind the scenes… that would make a huge difference
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About this midfield trio, it is very interesting that individually, only Fabinho was a truly elite midfielder. Hendo and Gini were not first-rated midfielders (I mean, they were not like say, Stevie, Lampard, Alonso, Busquet, Iniesta, Kroos or, Schweinsteiger), especially before Klopp arrived. However, Klopp made the trio a world-beating midfield.
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Nah, for me Fabinho wasn’t elite. Very good in the few things that were his strengths, but all round no, not enough for me to put him in that bracket.
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I think he was the best in the world during his pomp. Between 2019 to 2022, I don’t think there was a defensive midfielder to touch him.
When he dropped off, he dropped off hard. But he was brilliant before that.
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Again, disagree. For me he was never the world’s best, even at his prime.
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In the games we played against Real Madrid over that period Casemiro showed Fabinho levels, the difference in quality was unfortunately very clear. That Casemiro performance at Anfield was an absolute masterclass.
Still, a very good player, but not on Casemiro or Mascherano’s level.
As to the above discussion - the 08/09 midfield was easily clear of Klopp’s. Klopp’s midfield was functional, unfairly maligned at times, and supremely reliable…but it was still the weakest part of the side. Swap those midfields over and we get nowhere near United in 08/09, but Klopp’s team could have integrated Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard with ease.
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A 26 year old Steven Gerrard in a Jurgen Klopp system would have been a sight to behold.
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Mascherano was very good, the thing with him was that he accepted to go to Barcelona (one of the best club sides ever) where he dropped more into defence. Otherwise he would’ve remained in deep midfield at a big club regardless. Xabi’s absolute peak came at Real (especially when Ancelotti found balance with him at the base, Modric at RCM and Di Maria LCM), but he was still very good.
Mascherano could’ve either played the deepest midfield role or do a bit of a “Gattuso” (but in a better way) role at RCM, if there was a “Pirlo” who simply by his quality commanded to orchestrate from deep, right in front of defence instead of him. If you weren’t playing a double-pivot structure. Xabi also proved later in his career that he could succeed under different coaches and ways of playing. So yeah, no problem for me to imagine both in Klopp’s side. Some things would be adapted, it’s just natural.
And there were more influential players in the deepest midfield role than just Casemiro (Real camouflaged him in build up from deep, by dropping Kroos in his zone and pushing Casemiro a bit further), when we talk about Fabinho. For a period, I agree he could’ve got in the conversation as one of the best in his position, but for me he was never the best nor elite.
And yeah, Gerrard would’ve been absolutely amazing for us under Klopp at RCM in that 4-3-3. Imagine the triangle on that side with him, Trent and Salah. The balance and threat would’ve been phenomenal. Defensive discipline would’ve been needed, but Gerrard showed different versions of himself during his career, you can pick a few of them and stick him right in. Great player then who would also be a great player now. I believe in any era.
He recently gave an interview in which he said he might have struggled today with the technical requirements, but I think he done disservice to himself by saying that. He would’ve been absolutely fine, perhaps even greater than he was, because playing in a better team would’ve helped with consistency.
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