Banning Transgender Athletes From Women's Sports

Won’t be long before we see a link to the famous Battles of the Sexes between Bobby Riggs and Margaret Court, and then against Billie Jean King. Oh, I’ve just mentioned them.

In 1973, a 55 yr old Riggs beat then current leading women’s player Court (aged 30), 6-2, 6-1 in less than an hour. Worth noting that Riggs is 5’7" and Court is 5’9". Later that year he lost to Billie Jean King (then aged 29), 6-4, 6-3, 6-3. King is 5’4.5"

In 1992 Jimmy Connors (aged 40) played Martina Navratilova (aged 35). Connors was only allowed a first serve and Navratilova was allowed to hit the ball into half of the doubles tramlines. Connors won 7-5, 6-2. Worth noting that Connors is 5’10" and Navratilova 5’8".

Navratilova provides a useful segue to another tennis player, Renee Richards. Renee was a transwoman tennis player back in the 1970s/80s. She even competed at the US Open.

Navratilova knows Renee fairly well, having been coached by her to two of her Wimbledon titles.

Some comments on an article 3 years ago

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Again, I don’t personally give a fuck if Ellen Page is now Elliot Page. That’s up to the individual’s right to decide for themselves and you’re 100% correct that the rest of the world doesn’t have a say in that decision. However, the rest of the world is going to have their own opinions on the matter. That’s reality of the world we live in.

I’m going to leave out the parallels of this situation to those with physical and mental disabilities, because its so glaringly obvious that leaving certain doors open for interpretation is going to be used for exploitation. And it happens all the time, I see it all the time. I have some of this happening in my own family and when you see if first-hand being exploited it’s very easy to be jaded by your personal experience.

the FIMA ruling will not stop transgenders from participating in the sport they love, just competing at high levels. Decisions have consequences, this is something that humans learn from the moment they are born. Actions and consequences. As @Limiescouse stated earlier, being transgender is a complex process not taken lightly and I don’t discredit that statement. Anyone who makes this decision doesn’t do so lightly, and I’m 100% certain that what follows that decision (in some cases, its not even a decision but instead just having to wait until they’re ready to make that step) is taken into consideration as well.

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I’ve also said, at some length, that I don’t know where we need to draw the line on this, and maybe it is puberty. But there are inevitably going to be some people for whom it isn’t fair.

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I would hope they are able to get appropriate support and counselling before making any decisions they may regret later in life.

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[quote=“Mascot, post:206, topic:2867, full:true”] But there are inevitably going to be some people for whom it isn’t fair.
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That’s the crux of the issue though. No matter what the decisions are, they impact on someone.

Tyson Fury vs Katie Taylor both top of their game…but unfair on Katie…so no contest. Katie vs any woman her size is fair, as the parameters are somewhat equal.
If the science we have to date concerning puberty in males is correct, then trans women have an edge in competition with cis women. So the playing pitch isn’t level.
How do we address the matter so that fairness exusts on both sides?
I really don’t know

Have we seen transgendered athletes dominate? I think there is just one instance of a trans athlete winning a medal at the olympics (as part of the Canadian football team). You could probably count on one hand the number of transathletes that have ever competed at the olympics.

One of the challenges is that we tend to make everything black and white. That science demonstrates a clear advantage. It’s been cited a few times in this thread that 2 years after hormone therapy transgendered women maintain a 12 % advantage for running. What’s ignored is in the same study there was no advantage for other exercises eg sit-up’s and press ups. There are also various other studies that show for running there is absolutely no advantage. Science is not giving a yes no answer. Advocates from either side point to study that aligns with views. The first study of this kind was not published till 2015. This showed no advantage (and has been the basis of rules till recently)

The conflicting science shows that there needs to be a more nuanced approach. We also need to be mindful of the limitations of averages.

To use an anology here’s two distribution curves (not real data)

image

If you image curve 1 being female and curve 2 being male. You could probably plot similar plots for sporting performance, or hormones or weight or strength. If you then add your professional athletes they likely fall into the far right of their respective curves. We all agree the top 1% of men in most sports will beat top 1% of women.

But take something like sexuality and how that would fit in the curves. Lesbian woman on average weigh more, are taller, longer arms, larger hands. Gay men are the opposite. On average shorter, lighter, smaller hands etc. This translates more professional lesbian athletes than gay athletes. In short they have different distribution curve. Applying averages of puberty of boys vs girls is not always that helpful when talking about what amounts to a different population.

The key to this is what does the population look like. If you imagine a third curve ? Is it in the middle of the two. Is it to the left or right. Is it a fatter or narrower curve. How frequent are outliers ?

It’s not that much of a leap to imagine the very biological aspects of puberty that leads to masculinity (physically and mentally) are more likely to be more pronounced in male athletes. With no (or the opposite) correlation in those transgendered.

Which kind of brings it round to my first sentence. Trans athletes are far from dominating (barley represented in Olympics). Yet represent approximately represent 0.6% of the population. The perceived problem seems to be greater than reality. A sledgehammer approach to me appears out of proportion to the problem.

Take something closer to home, if Liverpool had a trans player in the womens team I would have no problem with that. I would see that as normal. A reflection of the population we all live in. I would not see that as unfair advantage. That’s not a problem for me (even if another female footballers feels disgruntled she lost her place) for me there would need to be a higher bar for sporting integrity to be questioned.

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I think the opportunity for trans athletes to compete is increasing. In the past a lot of sporting trans women would shy away from competition as it gave rise to controversy and question. Ergo the limited success of trans athletes, fewer participants at elite level, fewer successes.
As the conversation towards equity in society increases, therefore the opportunity for participation increases. And your data may prove to be the case, that the fains by post puberty trans athletes are not significant.
In the interim, whilst the matter is explored cis women in competitive sport may feel disadvantaged by what they see as unfair participants? And, it may still prove to be unfair.

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