A smaller height might be more helpful in certain sports (ones which involve aerodynamics for instance) and there are some sports there. But even then, the strength would only be a plus.
[quote=âMascot, post:182, topic:2867, full:trueâ]
Nope, you didnât. As they wouldnât be banned from male events.
This reminds me of the Murali debacle in cricket (not in the same scale ofcourse and hope this analogy is taken in the right spirit)
But youâve had a bowler who was legally allowed to throw going on to the record books as probably the best spinner of all time (or one of the 2 best). Then youâve had the clones of him like Harbhajan/Ajmal etc who went on a similar wicket taking spree only to be stopped from chucking later and then getting massively found out (Ajmal mainly).
Really? I donât remember too many people ever making that much of a fuss over Harbhajanâs bowling technique.
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He did chuck early on in his career and there was a fair amount of outcry then. He then modified his action to stay within the rules and lost a lot of his potency.
Ajmal on the other hand continued chucking even to the degree of 45 degrees (faking a deformity).
At this point, itâs about 10 v 1, so I canât answer everything. Even my male puberty doesnât give me to ability to type ten posts at once. If you demand a reply it would be helpful to with tag me or quote my post then I at least get notified.
I never said you put a persons pronouns in inverted commas. Semmy did, and he still hasnât acknowledged he was wrong to do so. If you drew the conclusion that I was accusing you of this, I wasnât, and apologise for offending you.
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I havenât weighed into the conversation as like most on here its a tricky one and Iâm not sure its easily resolved. I clearly have a problem with those dismissing it out of hand that trans women should be allowed to compete in womenâs sports as if the solution is exclusion of trans women or for them to compete in their gender assigned at birth.
I saw the MMA example above, and although I deplore that sport, I would think that would be one of the easier sports to resolve. If they have weight classes, that could be modified further to make it a bit more formulaic that would remove as much body advantage that the trans women would have - take into account muscle mass, height etc and not just weight. I think there is a way to balance that all out and allow cis and trans women to compete against eachother.
Where sports donât have different classes like this then its obviously much more difficult and I donât think there is anything useful I can add to that discussion so I will stay out of it.
I saw a question further up about whether there were sports where women have a competitive advantage. Shooting sports and equestrian are probably the only two wouldnât they be? IMO, sports are an expression of masculinity so I would expect that most of them would advantage men and their physique advantage.
Iâm involved in high level discussions around this tricky issue as part of my career. Based on stealing some elements from those discussions. Would the solution be (in an ideal / please everybody world) to separate sex and gender?
Male (you may compete, only if born male)
Female (you may compete, only if born female)
Mens (you may compete, if you identify as a man)
Womens (you may compete, if you identity as a woman)
Non-binary (you may compete, if you donât fall into the Menâs or Womenâs category and donât wish to compete in either âsexâ based category)
You may select one category only. Sports bodies would have to sanction anybody switching category, if required, but should maybe only happen once or twice in a personâs lifetime. This would prevent people flipping between codes to âgame the systemâ. For example, dropping to a less competitive level due to a poor run of form.
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And just to me clear what I think.
Everyone has the right identify as whatever gender they want. If someone is more happier and more comfortable identifying as a women, then only the most unpleasant reactionary bigot would deny them that. They arenât hurting anyone else and they arenât compromising anyoneâs rights.
Separate to this there is then a debate about trans womenâs right to use female only spaces and compete alongside female athletes. This is where itâs a lot more complicated and there isnât an easy answer or blanket policy that isnât going to create unavoidable discrimination. Wherever we decide to put the pendulum here there are going to be people to whom it isnât fair.
So far I suspect we mostly agree.
Where I think my view is a bit different from most of yours is that I donât think itâs ideal to use something as variable and random as âmale pubertyâ as the line we draw in the sand. I donât think itâs true to say that the science is clear, and I donât think itâs helpful to use examples that are obvious extremes to arbitrate on the experience of the majority. I think we have an understandable tendency to consider this subject with a binary (men are big and women are small, men are strong and women are less strong) understanding that we need to put to one side. And lots of people (hopefully not in this thread) have tendency to speak out on this without fully understanding what we mean by transitioning.
In the end, I donât know what to do. Havenât a clue. Itâs possible the issue around inclusion where the path is least clear. However we proceed some people are going to be treated unfairly.
If we say that you canât compete in female sports if you have had a male puberty, then there lots on women who went through a male puberty that left them with no advantage at all who are going to be unfairly excluded. If we donât, then there are going to be female competitors who have a massive advantage over other because they had male puberty, and that isnât fair either.
Thatâs a fair point. I can think of a few gymnastic disciplines where it might be advantageous to be smaller and more agile. Handball and other sports where you are physically targeted by an opponent might be made easier if you can present a smaller target.
One thing that would be a really good start, would be to remove gendered segregation where there is absolutely no need for it. The two obvious examples are darts and snooker. I know some female players prefer the division, as the male games are so far apart in terms of professionalism that the women wouldnât get a look in, but Iâd hope that a long term aim of both sports, and any other where there is no physical advantage in size of power, should be the merger of male and female competitions.
If one was born a man and transitioned to female, then one can still participate but in the male category.
The reason why males and females were separated in the first place is because we understood that males generally have better physical traits than women, and that women would not be able to compete with men in most activities.
Itâs no different than the use of performance enhancing drugs and steroids. Go back and listen to female Olympic athletes who had to compete against East German women who were injected full of hormones. People who trained their entire lives only to see someone turn up at the track or swimming pool whom theyâd never heard of win gold.
I have no problem with people who transition. But most people intuitively understand the inherent unfairness of this. Transgender advocates do their causes harm by being stridently ideological, and give those who oppose trans rights a wedge issue that sets back their cause.
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We all strive for a level playing pitch. Thats why the Man City sportswashing issue causes us to rail.
However, we also understand that excellence exists. Ali, Woods, Bjorg etc etcâŚall the best in their field, in their time. Within the rules of their sportsâŚand that is fair enough. We should never deny excellence for the sake of participation.
If we are going to say that unfair advantage doesnât matter then give Ben Johnson his gold medal. Give Michelle Smith hersâŚ
Until research proves that trans women are not advantaged by their assigned gender then they should not compete in womenâs sports.
At the moment the scant evidence would suggest marginal gain by trans sportswomen. But those marginal gains are akin to those of Johnson, Smith et al. Those gains reduce the competitive element of all other participants.
Is there a simple answer? No.
But every decision we make has a consequence, on ourselves or others. I see it with my relative that is currently starting this journey. Discussions with employers, reactions of friends, ability to discuss with more conservative and older family members, fear of exclusion, fear of violence⌠all massive issues to contend with.
Adding the issue of sports participation at the elite level isnât helpful to the whole conversation as it does generate difficult choices. But it has to be done, and done respectfully.
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Better? Different, surely.
Providing further categories to allow both for fair competition and participation by trans women isnât othering or exclusionary. Just look at the paralympics. Numerous categories depending on an athletes assessed abilities.
That allows for participation by as many people as possible whilst also ensuring athletes compete against peers with similar derived abilities.
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Stronger, faster.
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Interesting. I donât remember that, or was it prior to making is international debut?
from 2003/4 onwards i think.
what about if someone identifies as an MMA fighter and wants to be called one?
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I think you are massively underestimating the difference in the male body pre- and post-puberty. Adult female muscle density and bone mass increases with puberty, but male puberty is more akin to a transformation - even comparing the outliers, the ranges barely overlap. You point to the power of the Williamsâ sisters (though clearly thinking of Venus Williams almost exclusively), but even at the peak of her conditioning her serve speed never approached that of a male tennis player of her height and weight, even ones nowhere near the level to be professional.
I fear that you taking the same anecdotal approach that irks you so much with Klopptimist, reasoning from your experience of not seeing explosive gains to size/power - and probably massively underappreciating the absolute difference because of your experience of the relative difference.
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