How do you mean? Are you suggesting that the jury’s still out on it?
I don’t think you can say everyone who has gone through male puberty is put at a significant advantage over women. Some are. Some aren’t.
I mean, I don’t know where we put a line, so it’s maybe as good as anything. But let’s not pretend this is going to be neat and tidy. Every solution is going to be unfair to some people.
I was using the puberty example to try differentiate between a “simple” argument and a stupid one. Banning the Williams sisters based on their physicality would be stupid. Just as it would be to ban Bolt because he was born faster (over 100m) than anybody else.
Sport is definitely unfair. The people who are strongest, quickest, smartest, best coordination etc. are the ones who generally succeed at the expense of us “average Joe’s”. But we know that when we start and we know that few of us will ever make it to the top of our chosen sport. It’s not fair, but we go in with our eyes wide open.
Let’s go back to your goalkeeping days. For arguments sake, let’s pretend you were born female and identity as female and played on the girls soccer team. You’ve explained how unfair it felt that somebody took your position because they were bigger. How much worse would you have felt had your place been taken by a boy who identified as a girl?
Sport isn’t fair, but we can take sensible steps to make it as fair as possible. At all levels.
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Can you point out where I put a persons pronouns in inverted commas please?
This is your second time to address this with me, and all it does is incorrectly suggest that I have done so.
The poster who did has acknowledged this.
But even your own example, proffered to show that male puberty didn’t cause you to grow tall enough to keep playing in goal for a boy’s team, still left you several inches taller than the average female.
At no point did I say it was unfair.
As soon as I went into those full size goals, I was just getting lobbed several times a session. I lost my place to someone who was physically better suited to the position. Literally the only way I’d have kept my place was if every other kid on the team was smaller than me.
The problem is that trans women who have been through male puberty aren’t all built like brick shithouses. I totally get that the extreme examples don’t seem fair, but it also doesn’t seem fair that someone who have little or no physical advantage would be excluded from competing because of an arbitrary definition like ‘male puberty’.
Sport is unfair. That is why there is a handicap system in golf, weight divisions in boxing etc.
To use the Williams sisters as an example of sporting inequity and to question if they should be banned is completely missing the point of this discussion.
I’m pretty sure I can outrun most female recreational runners(who do similar excercises) who are younger than me at the same height range comfortably
Not that much taller than an average female footballer, actually. But there are lots of female footballers taller than that
It’s entirely possible that you have two people that are similar build and height, and one of them is banned because they went through male puberty. That doesn’t seem fair.
If there are physical advantages from going through male puberty (science indicates there are), then it shouldn’t matter how big or small the gains are. It is an unfair advantage which has been achieved as a result of male biology. That’s life, whether we like it or not.
To be fair to those who are born with female biology and is therefore unable to “unlock” these gains (big or small), then there needs to be some protection.
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The average female professional footballer.
The fact that is the comparator you consider relevant speaks for itself.
No it isn’t. And I’m not suggesting they be banned.
The Williams sisters were physically bigger and more imposing than other players, they were taller, faster, stronger and more powerful. They obliterated the competition in their sport as a result and dominated for years. And if the story isn’t apocryphal, Richard Williams was fully aware of this, and planned to get his daughters into the sport knowing they had a physical advantage that would allow them to dominate.
The point is that sport is inherently unfair. There are people in all sporting fields who just have a massive advantage because of genetics.
Fixed it for you.
To put it in further context.
A good-better than average time for men in a half marathon is 1:45-1:50. For women is 1:55-2:10. Science indicates that there are physical advantages from going through male puberty. Doesn’t matter even if the gains are 10% or even 3%. If there is a gain involved in someone transitioning from male to female , It’s an unfair advantage especially when you have women being banned for producing more testosterone.
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If there becomes a condition that an average male athlete can become an elite female athlete by transitioning and usage of the male genes, then it becomes very unfair to the other female athletes.
As I’ve already said, I don’t know what the answer is. My problem is people approaching this with such black and white certainty, when the reality is not that clear.
But what I think we should be careful not to suggest, even accidentally, is that people are going to game the rules and transition in order to gain a sporting advantage.
Knowing people who have transitioned, the idea that people would take such monumentally painful, intrusive, socially isolating and life changing steps for sporting reasons is laughable.
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Again , someone who was born a biological male would simply dominate over the williams sisters with ease.
@Mascot
Please answer this.
Fixed it better. In some sports a smaller build is helpful. This isn’t a one way street.
Again, transitioning is for people to feel comfortable in their bodies and with who they are. And they are well within their rights to do that and lead a happy life. That is their right and something which shouldn’t be denied to them.
Competitive sports however i feel is a privilege. There are basic human rights and there are privileges. I don’t think it’s fair to other competitors when even unwittingly, the system has been gamed. I mean look at the example of Fallon Fox for example. I don’t believe that she wanted to game the system but the fact is that she was strong enough to bash the skull in of her opponent which a normal woman wouldn’t be able to do.