if you look at the leadup to it and the 6 weeks it took for Russia to take it without a fight…
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t that largely because Ukraine did not have much by way of armed forces back then, or at least something more closely resembling a reduced size of Russia’s forces today? I don’t think the had any capability to put up any resistance…
That is only partly true.
There were ancient maps from either Sweden or Denmark in something like 1600s which listed Crimea and Ukraine as seperate to Russia.
“especially odd because the president of Ukraine was strongly supported by the autonomous region of Crimea (even though it was primarily Russian speaking).”
Crimea was at one point it’s own region and then was “downgraded” to an oblast. It’s been passed around between different empires for hundreds of years. Most likely, due to the accessibility issues of having only one natural land bridge to the Ukraine side.
Whatever your reading of the history is, and the complexities of the relationships between these two entities is such that I’d caution laypeople from taking too much a personal interpretation, the issue is the way Russia retook control of it. They did it initially by force and lied to the world about their involvement in that conflict. For all the fuckery they had been openly involved in prior to that, this was the point that the world officially put them in pariah status.
I’m fairly certain that your condescension wasn’t intended, but you should refrain from using such language with people you don’t know.
I’m Ukrainian, grandfather was immigrated with his family from Uman region as a child in early 1930s. Here’s a write-up about my grandfather’s great uncle Jaroslav:
Dr. Jaroslav Selezinka was born December 1, 1887 in Yanchyn, Peremyshliany District, Ukraine. Jaroslav achieved the title of doctor of law and graduated shortly after from the graduant course of the Trade Academy in Vienna. He was enlisted into one-year military service with the Austrian army and nominated as a military provisions official. During the war, he was awarded the gold cross for bravery and with a second gold cross for service (with a crown). After the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, he entered into service with the newly-established Ukrainian State and became a ranking sotnyk with the Command of the Third Galician Korpus. Later, he held the position of referent intendantury with the Directory Government ZUNR of Dr. Yevhen Petrushevych in Kamianets in the Podillia. After the departure of the Dictator on November 16, 1919 to Vienna, Dr. Jaroslav Selezinka took over the responsibilities of the chief of the Military Chancellery as a ranking otaman and the functions of personal secretary to the President. Engineer Stepan Kuropas, author of the article entitled “Working regiments of the Ukrainian Galician Army in Prague”, which was included in the quarterly journal “Visti Kombatanta” (no. 3-4) in 1962, confirms that major Selezinka headed the Ukrainian Consulate in Prague, whose head was initially Professor Dr. Stepan Smal-Stocky. At that time there was a number of Ukrainians living in the diaspora that took advantage of the Ukrainian passports issued by this Consulate, and several even came to the United States with these passports. It is here that there is an innaccuracy, because Professor Smal-Stocky was an Ambassador of the ZUNR (Western Ukrainian National Republic) in Prague, and not a Consul General. It is possible that otaman Selezinka was, before the departure to Vienna, a military attache with the Embassy. Following the final decision on the fate of Galicia by the Council of Ambassadors on March 15, 1923, Dictator Dr. Yevhen Petrushevych dissolved his government, all of his chancelleries, diplomatic representative offices and missions, and Dr. Jaroslav Selezinka returned to Galicia, where he was arrested and sentenced by the Polish authorities for criminal activities against the whole Polish State. After being imprisoned for one year, he was released through an amnesty. He eventually opened a law office in Radekhiv and became a leading and active member of the Ukrainian community on this territory. In 1930, he was imprisoned, along with his wife, for four months for exhibiting hostile behaviour towards the Polish State. The Polish police conducted 16 revisions (searches) of their home. During the first occupation of Western Ukraine by the Bolsheviks, Dr. Jaroslav Selezinka was exiled and executed (shot) at the death camp in Yertsevo, Arkhangelsk region, Russia.
My great-great-great uncle Yaroslav was the one who enabled my great-grandfather and his family to immigrate to Canada in the late 1920’s before he was imprisoned and shot by Russians.
Hope this doesn’t sound too hostile, but what is your point with regards to this post?
no offense taken. Point is, I’m overly familiar of the workings of Crimea’s history. I suspect there’s some Cossack in my grandmother’s side (also Ukrainian, Grekul family) which is historically from the Dniper River area in southern Ukraine. But none of the records made it out of the country during immigration and much of it has been destroyed as the lands were traded back and forth during the civil wars and Bolsheviks
What you stated was an over simplification to the point of meaninglessness. For a region as contested as this is you can almost never point to a single transaction/event as evidence as the rightfulness of a country’s claim over territory the way you did. Furthermore, using the language people speak as a marker of national identity is a really bad one for people from a region where multiple languages are spoken. Welsh is not my first language, but I sure as shit am not English. Zelenskyy’s first language is Russian, but he has never seen himself as Russian.
So what does this mean about the justification of Russian’s claim? To me, almost nothing. Especially no when contrasted to the fact that Russian themselves felt they had to resort to secret and illegal acts to try to reclaim it.
You may have more of a personal understanding of Ukranian and Crimeian history, but I can only respond to the words you use. If that encourages a more in depth discussion on the history of the region as it relates to the rightfulness of the respective claims, and why Musk is justified in telling Ukraine to give it up then great. I’d be happy to learn from people who know better, but again I can only debate and respond to the information presented.
EDIT: But in the interest of rephrasing my previous comment to sound like less of a combative dick, let me instead say…“I’d caution non-historians from taking too much from isolated events in history…”
Musk seems to think that his large following and business savvy gives him the right to voice his opinion on world events, however it just makes him look foolish because he doesn’t understand why Ukraine won’t just lay down.
Crimea has been won and lost many times over the millenia. Romans, Turks, Mongols and then the Russians. What you call an over-simplifcation is simply fact (which is why I specifically used the term “autonomous” when referring to Crimea) when it comes to Russia “gifting” the region to Ukraine in 1954.
Crimea was Autonomous for over 50 years as part of the Russian Socialist Republics, until after the WW2 when Moscow downgraded it to an oblast instead of a republic and hence why it became part of Ukraine’s control. when perestroika happened and the fall of the USSR, Ukraine gained independence and Crimea with it.
The point being, Musk is a cock, and these things should not be solved by showmen on Twitter.
One for @Klopptimist …
And no, I will not copy and paste the article, as it is behind a paywall.
I can’t believe there was a time, many many years ago that I respected this douchebag. He really should stick to inventing stuff because his actual opinions on everything are poison.
Why is Musk commenting on giving things away that are not his to give?
He commented on Ukraine giving away its sovereignty and land, and now Taiwan too.
Strange concept I know, but how about the people who live there decide that?
While we’re at it, I hereby declare that Musk should give me a controlling stake in Tesla and Space X, and to give Twitter to China.
As for China, beware. Hong Kong was free and prosperous, and now it has been swallowed into China the prosperity might still be there, for the good of China, but the freedom isn’t, if the protests and brutality we’ve seen are anything to go by.
If China gets into a dual sort of arrangement with Taiwan, as Musk proposes, it will end the same way as Hong Kong. If we are lucky.
It should be up to the people to determine their fate. As it happens, they are doing very well as it is, and they don’t look like they need Musk’s “help.”
Simple - He’s a cunt.
A bit more expanded - the combination of Precocious Expertise (a cousin of Dunning Kruger, where success in one area results in an inflated sense of self and and warped sense of the breadth of their expertise - see Nate Silver) and the weird right wing social media thing where they view the negative reaction as the goal, and come to view the validity of their position as directly proportional the volume and intensity of the SM criticism it receives.
Mentioned it in one of the other threads. He did it so he could post the video of it with the caption, “Let it sink in”, a common Q anon phrase.
Should this story really be about Diet Coke? Look at the tweet.
“Replica”