Carragher:
“I’m not sure he’s here [Liverpool] next year. I think he’ll probably move on.”
“He’s more like a cult hero because he’s a bit mad and he likes to run around, but he’s better than [Divock] Origi.”
Fucking Carra. Maybe if he can get some clutch goals in the leadup to the PL and/or CL trophy. As it stands Origi sits above him. Darwin (right now) will be remembered for tracking back and his dumb-as-a-box-of-hammers smile.
What’s his conversion rate (or whatever the kids call it) with Uruguay?
He’s scored 10 in the last 17 for country, and he did score for fun in his last season with Benfica. Could say it’s shite defending, but superb defending doesn’t account for many of his missed chances. The defense doesn’t seem to be his problem.
I don’t think it’s to do with ability, his finishing (and lack thereof). Looks like a mental block. I hope he gets next season with Arne and the new set up at least.
Maybe we could hook him up with the quack who sorted out Ronnie O’Sullivan.
Maybe he needs to have a chat with Peter Crouch. Now there’s a guy who had a mental block about scoring for us.
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Interesting question.
Apparently, he’s not underperforming his xG as much with Uruguay, and while he’s converting roughly the same number of shots, he is getting more goals per shot on target. The same story applies as with last season, he just got a lot more shots in with Uruguay than he has with us this season.
The club already has at least one person/professional for that, who is constantly available for help.
Steve Peters?
Didn’t we have him on retainer at one point?
Thing is also, it’s not just about scoring/finishing with him. Crouch took 18 games (if I remember well) without scoring and that was serious. You just felt sorry for him. Wasn’t like these days with social media, but I imagine he was a laughing stock outside LFC. But other things he did well, in the context of time and that team. Was also used in a slightly different role (especially when partnered with Morientes) by Rafa and did as well as he could. Receiving well, linking up, holding the ball, etc. Then when goals started to go in, it was of course easier for all. Was never going to be a world beater Crouchy, but a good player who probably had his period for us in 06/07.
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And which position is this? You’re avoiding the point that Matip started over Konaté in the start of last season until he got injured. Both were fit and available. Konaté had indeed finished the previous season playing ahead of Matip, but once Konaté missed one game in the next season, Matip took that place again.
Either way, that we can even debate this tells you that he wasn’t starting all games regularly.
I can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not, but on face value, that’s true.
Jota was a highly rotational option from the start. His starts as a proportion of the games he plays (implying that he was fit to play those games) are broadly similar to those of Núñez. And that’s at a time when the competition was Salah, Mané, Firmino, Minamino, and Origi. He wasn’t that stellar a performer for Wolves either. At the same age, Núñez was putting in better numbers in terms of goal contributions.
And the point is that they joined us much further along in their development. Simple as that.
I’m glad he has that support, but how you view his success here is inherently tied to his price tag. If he came in as a 22 year old forward for £20m, the contribution he’s had so far would be viewed as encouraging numbers for a developing forward. The relative plunge in his numbers this season would be viewed as the blip it rightly is.
Yet we somehow manage to do that for large parts of the pitch. The only players who don’t really get rotated this season are van Dijk, Gravenberch, and Salah. Other than that, we’ve switched around our other 2 in midfield a fair bit, up front in the other two positions, and our full-backs.
If that is your metric you’re only going to be disappointed, because once again, few players actually have that status.
I highly doubt that that “patience” is related to much more than what alternatives there are to him, and that opportunity cost therein. It would be absurd to loan him out however, because what’s the point of doing so when we could either sell him or use him instead?
Carragher, the man who thought Hodgson was a better manager than Rafa? Sure.
That part isn’t technically wrong though. Origi has had valuable contributions, but Núñez has had more goal contributions. Either way I think it’s a sign we really have to stop giving players that 27 shirt.
2nd in the hierarchy. I’ve given you plenty of examples of our regular starters who are performing at a high level (which Nunez isn’t), out of which you took out and imagined that Quansah played a third of last season ahead of Konate. Of course you have different periods or games when it’s different.
Again, unfortunately, you look at everything through numbers and goal contributions. That’s pretty difficult in evaluating players, different players, their qualities, styles, etc.
What is a stellar performer at Wolves? Jota was one of their best players, wasn’t world class, but he came in to finally raise the level of quality behind our front 3, add competition, cover those 2-3 positions and potentially be part of the future after them, which he has almost succeeded.
Jota and Nunez are not the same types of players, yet it’s pretty obvious who’s been a better and more useful player than us so far. And that is not only my opinion, bias, or narrative. And Nunez is in his 3rd season, which is enough to start judging.
Would Nunez overtake Jota (or simply become a success for us) if you gave him 41 more games for Liverpool, without Jota? Who knows, but first Nunez has to prove to Slot that he deserves to mostly start ahead of Jota, when they’re all fit.
I’m repeating, Jota is also adored, but he’s also not a footballing God. He has his weaknesses like they all do. I’m closer to the opinion that we’ll need a new striker soon. But Jota is perfect to be in our first 15 players or so. With Nunez, I don’t see much point going forward with him as a squad option, if he doesn’t tick enough boxes for us.
Nunez at Liverpool is not a blip, it’s not a Crouch 18 games drought. It’s been more or less a constant thing. He hasn’t worked out so far. Not hopeless, there’s been positives here and there, but more flop than success.
22 year old or 24, £20m or £85m, I’d still be talking about him. He’s been brought in to be a protagonist, not mainly a developing project for the future. It needs to happen now, it should’ve already started happening, or it should start happening very soon.
His price tag is absolutely an aspect of the topic, it cannot be ignored, when we talk in detail about Nunez, what happened, what is happening and what might happen. But I can also look at him only football wise, just as the player I see. Like I did Voronin, someone on a free.
Yet it’s pretty clear for example that Mac Allister is a regular starter here so far, showed quality pretty much immediately, got promoted to the leadership group, so we can see clearly what we’re getting from him now and that we want to build a future with him also. Which isn’t the case with Nunez.
Trent is still our first choice RB, that’s not even worth discussing, regardless of Bradley’s promising performances when he stepped in. What happens in the future, that’s another thing.
Key starters in terms of quality and who we trust on merit more than others, is not only those injury-free robots like Salah who almost never gets rested. We had and have a lot of those, it’s not only 2-3. We wouldn’t be where we are if there were so few.
Things don’t always work like a simple ‘click’ in football. For a while in Nunez’s time here, in which he was and is still useful, I guess it was pretty hard to find a serious buyer for him. Chelsea were actually rumoured to be interested I think two summers ago (2023). But that’s just a bit of smoke.
Now, as he will most probably complete 3 seasons at Liverpool and head into his 4th, with 3 years left on his deal (not ideal, if he’s still not performing well enough, let alone impressing), we might look at things and start making decisions. And again, that’s not only me, there are articles, journalists, pundits and a lot of fans talking about it. I’m certain that the club is doing that also.
Because not even Jota or Diaz seem like the answer to be that regular, key striker for us. Especially with Salah playing his final season(s). And it will be “easier” or less difficult to find a new, performing, goalscoring striker than a Salah “clone” on the right wing.
Nunez might have to accept something lower than Liverpool after us, perhaps a smaller club, but a competitive team, might still be willing to take a gamble with him. Unfortunately, I think the biggest gamble someone took in his career will end up being us. But it’s no drama, I’m well aware that it’s not the first time and not the last time.
He’s much closer to leaving than I don’t know, signing a new deal and getting a big vote of confidence for the future from he club. Which he probably would’ve got if he had been a success so far. Even in the middle of that, getting 6, or please let’s be economically sane, 5 of his 6 contract years… that’s too much. We cannot go with players so long, hoping that “they will all peak at around 28 (they won’t) and therefore deserve the same chance”. It doesn’t work like that. Not at Liverpool. In football.
3-4 years at Liverpool, in this context especially, is more than enough. He has great support, two coaches, different shapes, different team mates in positions closest to him. What else is needed? 41 more games than Jota? His 28th or 29th birthday? To realize that he won’t succeed enough here or that perhaps his ceiling isn’t that of a top player?
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here? You made the claim that there are regular starters, and there are those who aren’t. I asked you for a definition of what you believe a regular starter to be, and why you define others as regular starters but not Núñez. You made the claim that Konaté nailed down his position, which I interpreted as pretty much “when he’s fit he starts”, when that isn’t borne out by the evidence.
I did not imagine Quansah playing a third of last season ahead of Konaté. It actually happened. Fact is, there were 38 league games last season. Konaté was injured for 5. He played 22 of the remaining 33, a solid two-thirds. However, he only started 17 of those, which is just over half of the games he was available for. Quansah played 17, starting 13, of which 11 were games where Konaté was on the bench for.
Matip started 9 games, and in the following games, Konaté was available but did not start:
- Wolves away (Matip and Quansah started, Konaté came on as a sub for Quansah)
- West Ham at Home (Matip and van Dijk)
- Spurs away (Matip and van Dijk, Konaté came on as a sub for Gomez who was playing right back, we were down to 9 by then)
- Brighton away (Matip and van Dijk, Konaté came on as a sub for Matip)
- City away (Matip and van Dijk)
- Fulham at home (Matip and van Dijk, Konaté came on as a sub for Matip, the final game of the latter’s career)
Konaté was very much not first choice in the sense you’re making it out to be. I would define him to be a regular starter nonetheless, but by definition that would also include Núñez as a regular starter, since he started 22 of the 36 league games he played.
All of them were regular starters, and are still regular starters (except poor Matip).
And that right there is my point about expectations and narrative.
I’d say he is part of this future, just not as regularly as all of us would like.
I’d say it is precisely because it’s dependent on your perception, which is always going to be affected by bias/narrative, but you refuse to accept that point. You can argue perhaps that Núñez is Jürgen’s pet project, but even when Jota was fit last season, he rarely replaced Núñez, he mainly replaced other forwards.
If you want to argue under Arne, you may have a point, but it’s worth that after his first start of the season, Núñez missed the next game to illness, so it’s perhaps less clear what would have happened otherwise.
That’s the point about narrative, but even by your standards, he’s been a protagonist. You can argue he’s not delivered enough, but that’s because the expectations here are a world-class forward, one who scores like Haaland. Because if the comparison was meant to be someone who scores like Firmino or Mané, I’d say he already is close to that.
This is one clear example (albeit with a small sample size) of where he’s been improving, and perhaps where the compromise comes from.
I can’t find a stat for defensive pressures that corresponds more closely with the pressing game that Jota brings. Oddly enough his stats are on a downwards trend, while Núñez’s equivalents are trending up.
It’s quite clear though that if he can combine this with at least a return to the form of last season, if not an improvement, then he would already be a much more threatening player.
Has he actually been?
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Konate is yet to enjoy an injury-free period, plus he’s had smaller dips in form and sharpness, so it’s not been a linnear thing, but has been so far a clearer success than Nunez. He is our starting CB, Nunez is still battling to prove he can be Liverpool’s #9, for long periods.
I don’t think we put any limits on players like Jota or Nunez, but there is a standard they have to hit to be a success.
We are one of the world’s biggest clubs and regardless whether it’s a £45m signing from Wolves or £85m signing from Benfica, those pieces are brougth to bring us closer to titles and win them. Regardless if at the time Jota was more viewed as a rotation option to start with and Nunez as someone to get in the starting XI and at some point fully replace Firmino (and that is for another debate, which is more aimed at the club than Nunez himself).
Poor Nunez is not talked about mainly because he cost almost double the money than someone like Jota, let’s not even go there for his own sake. But of course, the price tag does play a part, especially in the wider audience, which is pretty logical. And it’s also part of the story what will happen during his time here, because finances influence both the transfer at a given time, the duration and the exit.
Right now, and for a while, both the club and fans are just wanting to see better stuff from him. He doesn’t have to play like a £85m player, however that would be even evaluated.
But what he showed so far is closer to not being enough to merit more importance both now if they’re all fit and for the future.
Protagonist or not, we can use other expressions, he hasn’t done enough so far. If we played a final tomorrow I’m not sure he would start it. The opposite could be said for about 8 of our regular starters. It’s not really a tombola, a 50-50 rotation.
The game is more than about numbers of goals and assists. Last season he had 18 goals and 15 assists, which was good and an improvement on his first season.
Numbers overall in his time here are between acceptable and not quite enough let’s say, but the story doesn’t end there, there are other aspects you need to provide in a game of football.
He’s not the same player as Firmino, both so far in quality and especially style wise and not the same player as Mane.
Numbers of goals, assists, xG’s and xA’s don’t tell the whole story.
Yes, Mac has been added to the leadership group this summer under Slot.
Firstly, you’re shifting the goalposts, and secondly, you’re just ignoring the facts. I don’t think there’s anything further to be mined from this particular discussion.
It’s already been made quite clear to you over and over again that your perception of Konaté’s starts doesn’t match up with the reality. But if this is the realm of what we’re dealing with, it only serves to emphasise my point.
Everything else you’ve said has essentially been, “vibes”. It doesn’t really matter what the facts say about Konaté’s starts, it’s just your feelings/observations that he’s the regular starter, no matter how they don’t actually line up with the facts of what actually happened.
In fact, if you want to talk vibes, that’s also probably where his initial popularity came from, with the cult status, the “chaos Darwin” and his visible passion. And you could also argue, there are the chaos vibes because that’s genuinely what he brings, that he’s quite unpredictable so it’s a real challenge for defences to play against, no matter all else. That’s an intangible observation that is rather difficult to quantify.
All of this is really just proving my point. A lot of what’s said about Núñez (as is relevant to this thread), but also pretty much of all our players and football in general, is really just personal perspectives. There’s nothing wrong with that, as long as we acknowledge that while humans are incredible information processing machines, synthesising a lot of inputs to form a more or less coherent/internally consistent image (even if that’s just an illusion), it also means that there are always biases, especially to maintain the internal coherence of that narrative. It’s why it’s so difficult to convince people of arguments in reality, because you need to find a way to rewrite that narrative into something that maintains coherence. That’s also where confirmation bias comes in, to reinforce and maintain that internal coherence.
The facts about Darwin Núñez is are that the goals he has scored, and the assists he has made, are already on a high level. They’re not world-class, they’re not perhaps top 10 forwards in the world, but they do stand on their on merits. However, if he can actually improve his finishing, such that he perhaps matches other top-tier forwards in conversion rate, then with the amount of chances/shots he usually creates, he would be absolutely elite. While his attacking output may have dropped so far this season, his defensive output has also increased.
You can talk all about his price tag, and everything else, and that may be true, and that’s a perfectly valid opinion to have from your perspective and values, but if you want to make predictions about what the club may do or not, it would be best to understand their decision-making processes, or at least whatever we can glean from it. And from what we can see of how they make decisions, it’s essentially that a football team is a portfolio of investments. You add or remove something from the portfolio depending not on its historical performance, but on what you think its future performance, especially relative to the alternatives you have available out there are, in terms of opportunity cost. That we have not made any moves to supplement Núñez and Jota, despite what you view as obvious weaknesses, suggests a blend of different things: (a) we view their future contributions is sufficient, (b) there is no one out there on the market who is worth the cost that it would bring, (c) there are other areas of the team where the opportunity cost is lower. The historical cost of individual investments don’t matter, they’re sunk costs. It doesn’t matter if Núñez was £200m or from our academy, it’s all the same now. It’s only in the minds of the media and fans that it matters.
Starting to feel we should enforce a Twitter-style character limit…
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He isnt good enough. Move him on in the summer along with Jota.
Twitter-stylee
You were doing so well
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Jotas great - but we cant have someone constantly missing half a season
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Guess we gotta say goodbye to Konaté too…
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And Alisson…
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