Would be interested to know if our US people think this is true
If what is true? If the narrative has shifted?
If the dems have shifted from slavishly supporting everything Israel does
I think it is true. The Democrats are shifting on their Israel views, helped along by a younger, more diverse group, and politicians like the ones mentioned, and also Rashida Tlaib, who is Palestinian and has family in Palestine. But it’s not an across the board shift, as there are still plenty of older Democrats who are very pro Israel.
The issue is part of the wider reckoning that the two political parties in America are going through: Who do we represent?
Well, if you represent older, whiter, more conservative Christian types, then you tend to be very strongly pro Israel. People in this electorate aren’t especially clued up on Israel’s behavior, and don’t know much about occupied lands, evicting people, open prisons, tight grip, and apartheid going on. They would stress the quantity of rockets being fired, not the quality, or the disparity in death tolls and military might between sides. They would have a memory of the Jews being horribly mistreated in WW2, so they deserve their homeland, and there would be a feeling that they are good people in Israel, practically like Americans… and you would also have some sort of pro Israel stance from a Biblical perspective, since in the Hebrew Bible Israel was God’s chosen people, etc. The old stories like little David standing up to Goliath also subconsciously fuel the notion that modern Israel is a plucky little underdog, trying to hold its own, when they truth is, due to American backing, they are the dominant military power in the region.
If you represent younger and more diverse people, who are generally also throwing off the form of conservative Christian religion of their forefathers, then you are more likely to call a foul a foul, and criticize Israel’s behavior.
As time goes by the homogenous white conservative group will become less of a force, while the diverse and younger group will hold sway. It is shifting now, but there are massive cultural suppositions in place that will delay a swing in viewpoint to what is common in Western Europe, for example.
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It’s a mess in Europe to be honest. The Germans feel they can’t comment, understandably enough, the British are culpable through negligence at least, and most other European countries have a history of anti-semitism which they have still to come to terms with in one form or another. None of them can truly claim impartiality.
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It needs a robust two state solution. That’s the compromise.
The more years that go by with Israel building and settling people in areas where they should not, just makes the two state solution all the more difficult to achieve.
Eventually public opinion in America will bring Israel to order, somewhat at least, and we are seeing that starting to shift, but I feel we are still some years away from it being majority opinion. By the time it is majority opinion I fear there won’t be much left for Palestine.
The elephant in the room, when it comes to a two-state solution, is that both parties have a particular unshakable belief that a very specific scrap of land in the region is holy to them and they, and only they, have a right to it.
Honestly, if people didn’t believe such bullshit the world would be a much less volatile place.
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Well, yes, it’s a pretty big elephant!
Maybe six months each? Temple/mosque/temple/mosque
Sort of like divorced parents ferrying the kids back and forth!
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There was discussion and even UN resolutions back in the 1940s and again mote recently, to make Jerusalem an “International” city. Run and overseen by the UN with access to all faiths.
Seemed like a good idea on paper, but maintaining peace and security was/is always going to be the issue.
To me, it is like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog. The land has been there for millions of years and will still be there long after you and I have gone.
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This is puzzling.
Not really. The creation of Israel was at least in part due to the horrors of the Holocaust.
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So, let me get it straight. The Germans feel that they shouldn’t be speaking out against mass evictions, among other numerous heinous crimes by a Jewish State because over seven decades ago some Germans masterminded the massacre of millions of Jews. Have I got it right?
By that same rationale, The Germans have to be not just sympathetic but actually supportive of any Russian intent to gobble-up Ukraine etc. since the USSR came out worst from Nazi atrocities. Did the UK supported the massacre in Bangladesh by the Pakistan Army or many atrocities by the Indian governments because they are ashamed of their (UK) own atrocities there during the colonial time?
How can The Germans even think about redeeming themselves from the crimes of Holocaust and other Nazi atrocities by being supportive of some similar crimes? Norway (Quisling Era) and Finland were close Nazi allies, yet they are at the forefront of recognizing the rights of Palestinians.
Germany redeemed itself from the Nazi shame by building a liberal, democratic nation. Even during the heights of Cold War, they didn’t fall to McCarthyism even though they were at the forefront of interference from the USSR/Communist Block.
It’s OK to be stupid, but it’s not OK to pretend to be stupid.
Finally, my apologies if I have offended any of my friends here. These sort of things really rile me up.
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It’s really not like that. Mainstream German politicians are loathe to criticise Israel for fear of being accused of antisemitism or worse. The Holocaust is not an abstract idea here, it’s a permanent part of the national psyche. Here in Berlin it’s inescapable. They are also less critical than the US/UK of Russia for similar reasons. Berlin is geographically closer to Moscow than it is to Madrid. I don’t think it’s stupid to be sensitive about the sins of history and the UK could well improve in this area. There will be a time when German politicians are able to criticise Israel, but it is still in the future.
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Exactly, no matter what we do, it is always misinterpreted anyway. If, as a German, you say something against Israel, you are immediately a Nazi, anti-Semite etc. And if you are pro Israel it means that, due to our history, we are not allowed to take the side of war criminals and oppressors etc. (not sure about the correct English words) In addition, most Germans have been raised to feel guilty about Israel. It’s incredibly complicated. Nobody here wants German pictures of burning Israeli flags etc to go around the world.
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Israel have not only rhetorically taken that off the table, they have demonstrated it in their actions. Look at what Palestinian territory looks like right now. You cannot make a state out of what are now just a disconnect group of camps. Israel would have to give some territory back and they have no intention of doing that.
I think it can possibly be over read with much of the establishment still holding firm to the traditional attitudes, but there is very definitely a new strain on the left, both within government and without.
My reading is that this partly a result of social media allowing Americans to see a more balanced view of the conflict because the way the establishment media portrays everything is very firmly in the prism of Israel justifiably defending themselves against the bad guys.
But I also think it is partly as a result of Israeli politics that because of Netenyahu have firmly placed themselves in the alignment with the extreme side of Republican domestic politics. I couldnt tell you the definitive timeline, but there is definitely a strain that runs back through the Obama administration, partly because of secret muslim conspiracies and the JCPOA, but it really solidified in the Trump era. It is unfortunate, but predictable and largely reasonable that such an involvement in US domestic politics would make people on the other side in the US reflexively see Netenhayu differently and then start taking a different view on Israel itself.
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Even though it was well on track by 1920?
Politically Germany was out of any discussions over the reforms or carve up of the ottomann empire after the 1st WW. Germany was reformed and never again got any say in ‘colonial’ matters. Historically this is why Germany has it’s stance on colonial matters.
The UK supported the Zionist movement openly from 1917. Sold land in Palestine to ‘Zionists’ and actively supported a ‘Jewish state’ in Palestine. Never ever including Palestinians in the debate so as to get support of ‘Jews’.
The politics were well in place before the 2nd WW even started. After the 2nd WW the UK couldn’t ‘afford’ to administer the empire and set about carving it up.
I know it’s common revisionism to point to the holocaust as some sort of trigger and there might be something in it. The point is though the politics were well in place before that.
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The thing is, is it antisemetic to criticise the Israeli government, not the people/faith?
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We all know it’s not the same, but that’s how it gets spun.
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Exactly.
You could say that the Dead Sea is too salty to drink and you’d be labelled antisemitic by some.
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Long way to go…
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