@redalways, are you the kiss fella?! Might explain the “warped love fest”?
Isn’t it really just a difference of opinion? I don’t see many actually calling Divock “shit”. He’s just not better than what we have, and cannot be relied upon to make a big difference.
This has been my main criticism of Origi. Even in the Barca game there were times when he wouldn’t commit to getting the ball, preferring to slow up, or swerve out of the way, or both as in this clip:
Every time I re-watch the game, at this point I always find myself screaming at Origi to run for the 'king thing.
I shall be forever grateful for his goals in this game and the final, but his time is surely up.
Lets be clear.
This is a forum. The purpose of the forum is to discuss players and the club. If a player has declined it is a perfectly valid topic for discussion. He has both not fulfilled his potential as a player, and in the last year barley played in the premier league despite being fit.
Next, you yourself speculate. You speculate that its his confidence, you speculate he didnt play because he is not very good at the defensive side of the game. Both of these are negative criticisms of Origi, only different ones. That’s your opinion. Its not a fact. No different. How does a crisis in confidence fit with the image Milner paints of him floating through life ? Or coming off the back of a season where he should have had more confidence than at any point in his career ?
Perhaps he does need a run of games. But it must be noted that did not work when he went on loan (described as in Germany as ‘obstinate’ and ‘listless’).
Milners book chapter are almost backhanded compliments. Its fine if you only want to view it in a positive light. However behaviour deemed acceptable when things are going well, and we can laugh about. I am not so certain its viewed the same way under tougher times like this season. On your last point about him being fully committed, I see it differently.
I see Milner saying there are two sides to him. On the pitch fully committed to being sucessful. Off the pitch totally relaxed, without a care in the world, in Planet Origi. Now its just my opinion, but I think its a valid one. To reach full potential a player needs to be as professional on the pitch as off it. Given he has failed to reach his potential. Its not unfair to highlight it.
Origi played well in the Barca game, I don’t like the narrative that he just happened to be standing in the right place at the right time twice. Seen that comment a few times now, it’s nonsense.
Yet despite all that praise Klopp gave he didn’t select Origi, that’s what we know and saw!
To elaborate a bit more on Div’s situation as I see it. I reckon that the clubs assessment on Wilson, Ojo … etc was made and it kept a space for Div. Now that Elliot is inthe picture (and it has been said he, Elliot, will have a role this coming season) Div’s place has dissappeared. At 26 he really is taking up too much space. It would be good for him and the club for him to move on (though I guess the club feel they have the time to insist a bit on their evaluation).
I understand you argueing against the ‘lazy’ agenda tag however I have a problem with your grasp of Div’s value at the club. Surely you can see where I am coming from, no?
My apologies, I did not see anything where he is specifically called shit by anyone, but the sentiment is certainly implied.
Shame on me for having the nuance to say that he doesn’t need to be sold immediately though. I wonder why that is not as controversial a statement as my similar statement saying that we shouldn’t do the same with Phillips.
Shame on me for thinking that he has something to contribute, because just thinking that means I have a “warped love fest” for him.
You raise interesting points, and frankly, if I had the answer, I’d be selling my services to Liverpool so we could either benefit from an in-form Origi or sell him for more money than we’d currently get. At least my speculation isn’t immediately refuted by the rest of any source I’m trying to quote. My speculation is grounded merely on what the manager of the team himself has said. And it makes sense in my head, if he doesn’t trust himself to be able to transition from defending to attacking the way the rest of our players do once we win the ball back, of course he’s not going to back himself to be able to get to the positions he needs to be in.
By fans perhaps, but not necessarily by his teammates and the management team, who would know him a lot better than we do.
See that’s where I disagree, and that’s where I see your pre-conceived notions of him coming in. Specifically when he says “off the pitch”, he cites Origi leaving his headphones behind on the team bus. Instead, he talks about Origi being committed and determined, which can be something that at the point, he could only have showed in training rather than playing considering he barely played until then. “off the pitch” is therefore more likely to refer to off both the training and playing pitch.
Enough of his team-mates have made allusions about his work-ethic to suggest that the discussion isn’t completely absurd.
I don’t think any is suggesting he’s a lazy arse who just can’t be bothered. He’s playing for Liverpool and has contributed to huge success. You don’t get to do that if you aren’t willing to work hard.
But maybe, there is a sheer drive and determination that at this level, separates the good players from the elite. Maybe an obsession with the game? A relentless desire to improve and improve? Salah and Mane have clearly got that. Milner, on less natural ability, has stayed at the top of the game for so many years. Whatever it is, Divock just ain’t got it.
I completely agree, not sure about whether Elliott would actually be displacing Origi or not. I think it’s more the case that Origi would go if we had someone else coming in as well.
I see where you’re coming from, and perhaps despite repeating it over and over again, I am not emphasising it enough. I could definitely see him going if/when we bring in some other forward into the team, and he’s definitely the first up to leave in that scenario. I also see him going if some club meets our valuation, which is likely to have been set with an eye on other targets we can bring in as a replacement.
I just don’t see him as a sell-at-all-costs that is being repeated over and over again (not literally, but certainly in sentiment). If he stays, he will almost certainly contribute something useful. If he leaves, then farewell and thanks for the good memories.
To put it another way, the rise of Kelleher has ended Karius’ career at Liverpool definitively. Was he as bad as most people make it out to be? No, for most of his career at Liverpool he put up better numbers than Mignolet. Despite all that people are saying about what he looks like when he’s playing, he wasn’t all that bad. But, Alisson has the benefit of being far more consistent than he is, while Kelleher has the benefit of age. Unless he’s willing to play third-choice (and even that is debatable considering Adrian has just signed a new contract), he has no place here. And that’s fine.
If any of our up-and-coming youth forwards (in addition to Elliott) were ready to make a step into the first team, I’d say without hesitation that we should let Origi go. But people seem to be willing to give Minamino much more time, despite the fact that he’s older than Origi. And I like Minamino, not least because he’s the first East Asian player we’ve had.
Differences of opinion still - and unfortunately no one is going to back down on their own views. That’s the magic of us being individuals.
I’d agree with most of what you posted, but what I can’t see is how he would have stayed at the club for so long if that was the case. I’m not sure Jürgen has the time for any player who hasn’t got that mentality, especially considering how much stress he puts on mentality in any of his interviews. That’s where something is missing for me with all these debates. I think the club’s internal valuation of him would also have been lowered, because the opportunity cost of someone who doesn’t fit that mentality would be too high to keep him.
Can you imagine what the message we would have been sending to the other players if someone who didn’t that mentality consistently got into the team and onto the pitch ahead of them?
That’s because I’m not suggesting the obviously absurd notion that he’s a lazy twat who doesn’t put in the effort in training and doesn’t work hard.
The word that comes to mind with Origi is that he is largely ‘content’. He’s happy at Liverpool, he isn’t that bothered about being a bench player, and he’ll do his best when called on. He has no great desire to fight his way into the team, and he isn’t going to demand a move to get his career back on track.
It’s also clear that everyone loves him as well.
Just watch our third, Divock’s second, goal 
I think Origi is too mellow. He doesn’t lack confidence and he isn’t lazy. He just lacks the intensity we need and seek. I feel he would do well at a club that doesn’t always have too much at stake.
But we’ve tried to sell him nearly every summer Klopp has been here and ended up using loans sometimes to take him away from the squad harmony. We had a reputation as soft touches in the market so we went through a period sticking to high valuations on our sales. As he’s been largely disappointing whilst we’ve owned him that’s led to him being hard to sell. Clubs that could afford that wanted better and clubs that wanted him like Wolves he wanted better.
And does he get on the pitch ahead of others? Maybe Minamino? Sometimes Shaqiri? That’s about it.
Technically his first loan was part of the conditions that Lille had for his sale. We signed him and loaned him back to them immediately. Then, unless I’m much mistaken, we loaned him out to Wolfsburg because there was no chance he’d get regular playing time in 2017-18, which was the season before the World Cup, which he had a chance of making it to. Unremarkable is probably the most charitable description of that loan, which meant that he missed out on the World Cup anyway. Taking him away from the squad harmony is probably just your own invention.
Summer 2018 was probably the first transfer window when we were open to letting him leave on a permanent deal, but we then gave him a chance to prove himself, and it was telling that Solanke left instead, while he embarrassed Everton. We then gave him a new contract, when we could have let him leave anyway. I don’t think at the time fans would have been too upset, even if it was after Barcelona. But he did enough in the eyes of the management team to earn it. Since then we’ve been open to offers, as we generally are for most of our squad players usually.
And I would say he’s probably a luxury player, completely different from Shaqiri or Minamino. Shaqiri is less of a goalscorer and more of a creator, whereas Minamino is more of a Firmino-type player who presses with intensity but then is really good at finding ways to pass the ball to either of Mané or Salah. Origi tends to be more of the player who will provide the final pass or score the goal, but contribute less in build-up play, simply because his size is rather deceptive and he’s not actually as good at muscling players off the ball the way Salah is. However, when we’re utterly dominating the game, but just not able to finish, he often is the exact player we want since that’s what he excels in. He’s just been rather unlucky this season, when he’s had a couple of shots that went narrowly wide.
Just because he’s a squad player at best, doesn’t mean that we should get rid of him. If we can get someone like 2016 Mané or 2017 Salah, the promising forward who isn’t the final product yet, I’d say his Liverpool career is finished. Similarly if we find someone who can be a longer-term replacement for our central midfielders. There’s just no point moving him on if we don’t need that extra spot in the squad. If he’s fine with that, then why not?
Anyone from our front three are complimented by the other two. It is the trident that Jurgen has assembled. Unfortunately, Jurgen has never assembled two other forwards at the club that would compliment Origi’s strengths and vice-versa… If he continually failed to produce, then and only then, should we criticise him for being a waste of space.!
Ask yourselves this…
would Lewandowski fare any better in Liverpool’s front three style of play, or like Origi, would the bare scraps of minutes Lewandowski was given to prove his worth, result in a similar scenario!
This is where I move into the speculation bit again, and say that he’s happy at Liverpool, and while he may want to play more, he has no desire to move because (a) he’s found a workplace where he’s settled and comfortable, and (b) his general other-worldness also means he believes that he can still make it here with his hard work. He has improved parts of this game in the past season, but otherwise he hasn’t actually delivered anything, so whether or not he’s right with (b) is yet to be seen, although highly unlikely.
I understand, but what I am suggesting is that I think Jürgen is not content to just have someone who works hard, but more so someone who would give their absolute all as a bare minimum, just like I believe most people I’m disagreeing with in this thread want.
I think he doesn’t fit stylistically with most of our general play, but that’s also his niche in the team, where if we want to focus on just getting the goal, he has his strengths.
That’s one thing I believe is leading into the perception that he’s lazy! He’s extremely passive on the pitch, and even in the latest training video on the pre-season thread, he moves fast, and is more than able to shake other players off, but he doesn’t shout a lot, if at all. Milner’s words make complete sense here, that he’s playing in his own world, he’s just focused on doing that particular thing, instead of trying to catch other people’s attentions.
Even if he really cared a lot about playing time, I don’t think he’s the type to knock on the manager’s door and demand to know what more he can do to start. I think he’s more the type to keep his head down, work extra hard in the drills and sessions, and hope that he will get noticed. Whether that’s the right approach or not, is highly debatable. It certainly has shown inconsistent results so far. But it’s often what so many people say they want from a squad player, who’s not a starter, but yet when he’s here people don’t value him much.
This is exactly what I’m trying to say, rather than having a weird love-in for Origi. I quite clearly have communication issues…
That said, I don’t think he’s close to the machine that Lewandowski is, in part because of the whole passiveness. Players like these need to be the focal point of the attack, but he’s not going to get the attentions of his teammates if he’s not vocal enough. In terms of raw physical ability and intelligence though, I think he does have that.
Yes! Most definitely he would. Just like Jota has.
Firstly, Jota is a very different player. He’s much more similar to Mané, and definitely much more mobile than either of Origi or Lewandowski. And this means that he dovetails better in a team which is reliant on everyone pressing hard.
Secondly, he has largely similar numbers to Origi attacking-wise, with overall goal contributions last season coming in at 123 minutes per goal or assist, compared to Origi’s all-time Premier League performance (including last season) at 120 minutes per goal or assist. That said, I expect Jota to do better in a more normal season.
Thirdly, Jota has gotten more minutes in the league this season (1112) than Origi has had in any other season for us apart from 2016-17 (1457). In the latter season, Origi got 7 goals and 4 assists, while Jota has 9 goals and no assists (Premier League only). That season, Origi was 21, while Jota was 24 at the start of this past season.
I doubt it’s his attacking contribution that keeps Origi out of the team at any rate, but more of how he just doesn’t have the mobility to press high up between multiple players, which often results in it looking very half-assed.
Most pointless discussion in the (admittedly brief) history of TAN? 