I mean, they (the owners, Klopp, don’t know, don’t care) gambled by not doing anything last summer in midfield, basically throwing the season in the bin. Add the subsequent hundreds of briefed articles telling us for months that we’d rather wait for the right player and he wasn’t available, and Bellingham this Bellingham that, blah blah etc. Not that I’m really arsed, just curious to see how it all ends.
The player doesn’t have to be slowing, your selling in anticipation of it happening?
The problem with quoting any of our past greats, Paisley, Shanks, whoever, is that they were products of their time.
We all are, for that matter.
So while you can still see the truth in what they said, it doesn’t necessarily follow that it should be applied as gospel for all times and all places.
It has been said many times before, but they wouldn’t recognize the modern game.
My guess is Shanks would be in hot water within five minutes, with some salty quip or other, as the media duties are now of a different magnitude. And on that point alone, Bob would probably swerve it, as he wasn’t a man for the limelight.
Purely speculative on my part, and in full acknowledgment of the greatness of both men.
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So was Bob out of date then? Saying let a player’s legs grow old on someone ele’s pitch?
Some things will always be in fashion or applicable, some won’t. Take the good throw away the bad.
He would of watched the game today and thought YES, I undoubtedly want to play for one of these exciting sides.
Paisley was a great. Best ever for me. The titles won in a relatively short span of time were second to none. Further, as a former trainer he also had a great eye, and he was well qualified - for his day - to judge when a player’s legs were going. Let them go on someone else’s pitch, is right Sir Bob.
But like everyone else, Bob Paisley was a product of his time. With regard to this specific issue he did not have access to the mountains of sports science data that is available today, especially to any team in the Prem.
Bob had an eye for it, and he was a great judge on that front.
But today, I would imagine that any statto employed in the game would have mountains of data - total miles run, average speed, amount of sprints, and distance, heart rate, top speed, etc.
In other words, any statto employed at a Prem team today would know, with certainty, the athletic output of any potential transfer, especially in relation to what they did in previous seasons in their career.
Bob would not have known that, not nearly to that degree. And how could he? He was a product of his time.
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Not actually that true. The boot room kept incredibly detailed notes on players, injuries etc.
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He wouldnt need to. His quote alludes to forward planning and moving on players when they are at risk of their legs going, not at some precise point were they have.
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Begs the question, if we have our own statto’s how come we didn’t spot any of this coming?
Or is it a case of the coaching side have acted against the advice of the science folk?
I still can’t quite get my head around the fact it looks like VvD, Matip, Gomez, Robbo to some degree, Henderson and Fabinho have all fallen, from a physical perspective, off a cliff at pretty much the exact same time. Sure, we might have seen Henderson slowly approaching that the last couple years but it seems he’s gone over the edge at the same time as the rest of them.
How did we not see this coming and why didn’t we do anything about it?
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Because it isn’t as perfect a science as Mascot is suggesting. It comes back to the idea that statisticians say - all statistical models are wrong, but some models are useful.
You can use data to help inform judgements on how much players have left in their tank, but using the data alone is really not very proscriptive or precise
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Didn’t Shankly have a hard time moving on players from his first team (and his initial sides weren’t even very good or successful players). I seem to recall him saying something about being heartbroken to have to tell players who had been at the club for years and years that he couldn’t use them in the first team anymore.
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His 1960s team definitely became too long in the tooth. Paisley wasn’t in charge that long (9 years total?) but he was absolutely ruthless. There was one story that Emlyn Hughes had whereby he threatened to ask for a transfer after he didn’t get the length of contract extension that he had expected. Paisley didn’t argue with him but Hughes was playing for Wolves 48 hours later.
I think other managers have had too much loyalty to certain players. Even Fergie let his Man United squad become far to aged before he retired - I’m sure that’s why they fell off a cliff during the next season.
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You get discounts on a lemon.
The original Statto…
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I know the boot room kept detailed records, in log books, and it gave them an edge in relation to their peers. Still, if you think they had the same data as sports scientists at every Prem club today… more power to you!
It’s an odd discussion tbh, and there’s no debate for me.
I am VERY pro Bob Paisley. I can wax lyrical about the man.
And at the same time I can also say he was a product of his time (as we all are).
It’s not contentious.
It is a very good question.
On our three strikers, Salah, Mane and Firmino, my suspicion is a while ago we decided to move one on, give another a bumper new deal, and let the other run his deal down. It looks like we managed the overall athletic decline of the group that way, and obviously brought in Diaz, Nunez and Gakpo to lead the charge moving forward.
Athletic output isn’t the only consideration, as finances and profile of the player are also factors to consider, and the whole thing is complicated, but it looks to me that we managed to transition the strikers quite well. We will see what the emerging breed can do as we move forward, but I expect them to grow in importance as we go.
The midfield is more complicated. We have an old crop and a young crop. The peak age in betweens - the ones who should be holding it all together - have not been available to pick, so the oldies and youngsters have been depended on too much.
Henderson looks like he got a contract longer than he should (Klopp’s loyalty, probably, and I would imagine the stattos told him not to do it). Thiago has had niggly injuries and they have only increased as he has got older. I suspect he will leave in summer. Fabinho, the youngest of the three, has dropped off a cliff, athletically, and that one is the most puzzling, as his age should lead us to believe he would perform at a higher level for longer.
I’m not altogether worried about Van Dijk’s decline. Since Pickford injured him, he took a long time to get back, and the level wasn’t quite the same. I put most of Van Dijk’s slight drop down to that, and also not having much of a midfield in front of him, and also not having a settled partnership.
The whole thing has been at sixes and sevens, but I expect VVD to give us 2-3 more years, and along the way to start to be used more sparingly, as a new signing grows a partnership alongside Konate.
I am looking forward to summer, and then whatever business we have lined up, in and out, being enacted, along with some sort of team bonding to clear the air and go again.
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That’s fair.
So to apply it to the current side, Mo Salah would be vulnerable for me, as one who relies on speed, and who would still demand a good fee if he were sold.
The vast amounts of money in the game nowadays hand a lot more power to the players, in relation to Paisley’s day and age, so we can’t go about it like a bull in a china shop.
Still, whisper it quietly, but if Messi takes the Saudi money like Ronaldo, I could see Mo Salah going to PSG, where he will score goals for them and do well.
With the money I would buy Diaby and/or Kudus, assuming we have the dough to put into the midfield this summer.
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Messi is rumoured to be going back to Barca at the end of the season to help his pal Xavi
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I know Barcelona have been trying to get him back there, just didn’t know if they would be able to find the money, with their issues.
Still, if they do, there is a vacancy at PSG. They might well go for their own younger players to fill it, but I could see Mo and PSG both being interested.
He knows the owner. It’s an easier league. He will score for fun. He won’t miss a season in the CL at a peak age. (Not a forgone conclusion for LFC, but it doesn’t look good!)
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I wouldn’t be surprised to see us sell him to PSG.I think the money we could get out of only them would make it impossible to turn down in a year where it looks like we need a huge outlay to rebuild.
3-4/5 new players for the starting 11 is gonna cost.
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