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@Zoran Thatâs a lot to reply to but I did read what you said.
Ultimately I believe its the job of a coach to maximise what they already have available to them and use the market to improve where the maximum level of their available options proves to not be good enough for the objectives of the clubs. My criticism of Guardiola is he is very quick to skip over the first step and jump to the second. Heâs let players go who are better than what he has now because he didnât have the patience to let players develop.
I disagree that they had a plan for Palmer but he got stuck behind Foden. For a start they play different positions and roles with Foden more capable of operating in a more withdrawn role while Palmer is a more aggressive attacker but also Pep made it pretty clear to Palmer that he wasnât in his plans. They would be 4,5,6-0 up and Palmer would stay on the bench. The first serious offer that came in he was gone and within a couple of months was a star of the league. I think thatâs a failing as a coach to let a talent like that walk away - especially one that was born and bred in Manchester, should be a heartbeat and connection to the local community.
Guardiola has coached the creativity and ingenuity out of lots of wingers now, so I donât think thatâs fair to throw that in with the jokey criticisms that you call âchildish stupiditiesâ, and the conversation has always been in the context of Manchester City being a boring watch. The only one I can think of that he didnât get to in that way was probably Mahrez. He likes a style of attack - get the byline and cut it back - itâs very effective and itâs won lots of titles and thatâs fine but on an individual player level I do criticize that dogged way he wants everyone to play because he creates robots out of insanely talented players. Itâs works and thatâs great but I find it hard to get excited about, and when people tell me their football is beautiful I struggle to see it I just see the same patterns repeated time and time again to a high level.
Heâll do the same with Doku and weâll see an exciting, eccentric winger turned into an effective cut-back machine or weâll see him sold. Guardiola certainly isnât in love with him yet. Again, itâs effective but it kills me to just see football turned into a grind of efficiency over genius.
As for Liverpool U19s that day against Zagreb, I agree most of those are not good enough. However I never claimed Liverpool have as good an academy as Manchester City. Cityâs academy is the most expensive and state-of-the-art academy around who are churning out Premier League quality players every single season. Go back and find any evidence of me saying that I think Boyes, Lewis, Coyle, Sharif, Cain, Duncan or Glatzel were Premier League talents - I didnât because they werenât.
On the other hand Liverpool have been able to turn Curtis Jones into a good high level Premier League player - transitioning from a winger to a central attacking player to now more of a multi-capable midfield tool. Theyâve maximized his abilities and given him the patience and space required to become the level of player he is today. Neco Williams was given time and patience he just had the unfortunate reality of coming up very soon after Alexander-Arnold had already established himself in the team at a young age so the opportunity was only really for a backup role and he requested to leave. Like you say thatâs football it happens.
Iâm not saying Liverpool get it right all the time but it is my personal belief that a coach should have some level of flexibility and use the resources available to him not just turn to the transfer window every time. Guardiola used to be really good at that, he is, or used to be, obviously a world class developer of talent and he showed that at Barcelona and Bayern Much (to a lesser extent) but I believe as he has aged he has become more and more obsessed with extremely particular patterns and styles which in turn has led him to rely more often on buying in players he believes suit it more rather than show some level of flexibility and use the outstandingly talented players he already has access to.
Itâs a bit galling for me to watch players in their U21 team like Cole Palmer, Romeo Lavia, Carlos Forbs, Callum Doyle, James McAtee, Tosin Adarabioyo - and from their current crop Nico OâReilly, Jahmai Simpson-Pusey, Max Alleyne and Ryan McAidoo - and think what Liverpool would be doing with those players, while simultaneously hearing constantly about Guardiola being a genius coach. Liverpool who still match Man Cityâs level for the most-part but are doing so while also trying to maximize the level of players they have - while Man City sit on and ignore players that would be huge assets for us. That rubs me the wrong way.
I donât think Curtis Jones comes through at Liverpool if Guardiola takes over instead of Klopp. I donât think Bradley does. Or Quansah. Kelleher. Trent probably would but only because heâs an unquestioned generational type talent and I donât think he would have got his chances as early as he did.
So yeah itâs personal preference, but isnât everything? I think he wastes a lot of talent he has access to in search of players who will perform his exact vision. I think his job is to use all his resources and find their maximum level and I think he has shown that he has failed to do that multiple times. I think he gives up on players too early and too willingly and I think that is a trait he has steadily developed on his way to becoming a chequebook manager during his time at Man City.
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Same here.
Just read the last bits of @Sweeting reply.
Sort of what I meant to emphasize on Pepâs journey into being a cheque book manager.
Yeah, I donât agree that itâs a lack of patience, dislike or inability to work with them. Sometimes you try to gain an advantage by seeing certain things quicker than others and making decisions.
Foden is still more of a forward these days or a between the lines player. Heâs been used a bit everywhere, off the right, off the left (and not only by City), false #9, central attacking midfielder.
Fodenâs game is still not on David Silvaâs level of tempo-changing and maturity. Who knows if it ever will, it doesnât have to. He does things fast, very fast. Pep wants him to learn also how to play in first and second gear. Not everything needs to be done 200mph, which are his first insticts when he gets the ball (and heâs very good at it). It can be counter-productive. Itâs not a game of FIFA where players just play full speed all the time.
You could theoretically fit Foden and Palmer in the same side, but they are best in more or less the same zone. They are no wingers, they are no proper deep midfielders (yet) and theyâre no strikers. Both left footed.
Palmer spoke about wanting to leave and how abandoning his area which was potentially problematic for his further development, is good for him. I wouldnât say he ran like a headless chicken out of City, but then yes, that pulls the general discussion I was trying to raise whether Guardiola fights enough to keep someone who wishes to leave or isnât really 100% in it. More than a lack of patience, there might be a bit of too much ego there. Like âwe can deal without you, you can go if you wishâ. Who knows.
In a number of these cases they didnât bring replacements in, but went on with what they have. So itâs patience and perhaps too much patience in other aspects! And it cost them even more success in some competitions in some seasons.
He did get praise from people in the sporting industry for that approach though. So Iâm not sure what exactly to think of it. We donât know enough, being outside the game. I guess like with everything, it can lead you to good decisions/experiences and bad.
And ultimately, not all players will feel the same connection with itâs club or city. They have other players who feel a connection with the club, fanbase and the city. Palmer (really admire him as a player) looks like a miserable c*nt anyway most of the times, even when he scores. But thatâs just my impression as a totally unprofessional body language expert!
I donât agree that those players become robots, quite the contrary, heâs probably one of the rare coaches at the top level who wants to embrace their strengths. Certain rules are there, the rest is up to the quality of the players, which these coaches always repeat. Theyâre brilliant at getting to the by-line, but itâs not the only thing they do. Weâre past the times of Quaresma or whoever of similar ilk showboating. Itâs not Pep killing skilful players, itâs just football and not since yesterday. With the rare examples of players who can both entertain and also be part of top teams trying to win.
I think itâs the type of boredom for some where if youâd have his wingers playing like Quaresma, weâd ask for less showboating and more collective efficiency. A never ending circle of never being satisfied.
Yeah I wasnât trying to say that you specifically predicted bright futures for all of the players who started for Liverpool U19âs that day, but just to give a bit of context, after a good few years, how other or many people had expectations or hopes for some of these players and where they are now. Some are on the verge of being even professionals. Itâs not something I celebrate, but itâs the reality. We can only wish them luck, health and success in life, whatever they end up doing.
Neco is a good example, what else shouldâve happened there with Trent here. Itâs a sucessful story, breaking through at Liverpool in good times, getting 33 games across 3 years and moving on to be a very solid PL player with international recognition and importance.
Palmer is certainly a case to discuss about where it was genuinely close for him to do as well for City (but questionable for how long, in coleration or clash with Foden), others well⌠I just donât think theyâre that good for some I know about, others I donât know about but I see where theyâre playing and how much (so far). He kept McAtee this season and heâs also more of an attacking type of midfielder, he ainât gonna solve their issue in deeper midfield.
There are tons of his now ex-players speaking how much he influenced their careers, changing their views, opening their minds, changing their positions at times. But what can you do with someone like Tommy bloody Doyle and others of similar or not much better level. From what Iâve seen of him, not much. Not at the top level. Not at City. Lavia, maybe.
Adarabioyo (someone who I wondered if he could be good enough for Liverpool, about two years ago) got his chance initially and it took him two Championship loans and 4 years of Fulham before a Chelsea in issues and changing tons of players every year came back for him to give him a chance of potentially returning to the top level. The way Chelsea move their CBâs about, who knows what will their CB pairing be in a year or two, if they continue improving under Maresca, where focus will be rather on defensive phases and players at the back in general (GK included), rather than offensive firepower.
I know football isnât perfectly aligned, not all players are where they all really belong. There simply isnât enough room and some clubs take these players as stocks. Like I said, Iâd limit that straight away, to give smaller clubs more of a chance. But a lot of these examples are nothing special (not only City, but football people know much more than us), itâs not something âobviousâ like Virgil van Dijk strangely going through Celtic and Southampton, no international caps before becoming what he did become. Not that I was convinced heâd become what he did, but we saw very quickly that heâs quality. But cases like that are very, very rare.
Iâd say Pep would possibly like Jones even more than Klopp did (which was questionable just how much), just like it seems now Slot really likes him. The rest is impossible to know, of course they brought some incredible players in those positions, but also from sometimes not the most obvious places. De Bruyne with Genk, a bit of Chelsea, Werder and Wolfsburg in his legs. Honestly I watched him a bit post-Chelsea and thought he was ready for the biggest clubs (I said he wouldâve been ideal for Rafa at Real, balancing the right side for Ronaldo on the left), but there you go, while (just throwing an example) Real buys World Cup posterboys like Rodriguez, City goes and buys a player most fans probably wouldnât think of. And takes him to new levels, changes position. For the record, no I donât really blame Chelsea moving on from De Bruyne at the time. He certainly didnât seem to be a patient enough player at the time and you have to make decisions as a club sometimes. Even when it seems like heâs not far away to be ready and perhaps a loan or two. The player and his entourage or family also have their say.
I think Kelleher would also have no issues there, especially with his ability on the ball. Muric was promoted as their backup goalkeeper for a season with zero previous senior experience. What he went on to achieve until now, clubs and years after, suggests again: nothing special or obvious regarding the top level. Now they have bloody Ortega, who absolutely nobody heard of (I didnât even know who Ederson was when they bought him), a random goalkeeper on a free from Germanyâs lower sides, in his 30âs, actually playing a good amount of football (now they might be playing some those âare you committed to the cause enoughâ games with Ederson). Iâm talking about this as a fan who doesnât watch a lot of these leagues or tournaments, of course that for scouting teams, they know very well that there might be a goalkeeper on a free, from Germany, whoâs good in possession.
He did go very physical in his full back choices a few years ago (some were a success, others not) and there it actually showed the bad side of flexibility. He shouldâve remained more stubborn in that case in my opinion, but itâs impossible to be right all the time. But now we have CBâs playing at full back. Which is not too dissimilar to physical full backs. And itâs not only him doing it. But also some of (surprise, surprise) his ex-coaches who are now in high profile jobs. Coach creator also!
A lot of those players cannot go in the same category. Either foreigners like Palaversa or Porro. Or local talents like Doyle or Palmer. Very different levels. A lot of those who have left are not good enough, letâs not overrate them.
Football (sorry Kloppo, I know itâs too much to ask, there are many footballing houses) should introduce more limits on how much players a football club can carry. England should still look to improve how they work with young players, regardless of them getting more talented players now. Itâs still not where it should be, itâs hard to make it, possibly harder than anywhere. And thereâs also the general cultural and money aspects (which is linked to the league, vastly dominated by the best foreigners). And I think more English players should follow the example of trying something different, go to various European places. It enriches you both in football and in life.
Not everything is personal preference, I donât think. Weâre not robots, weâre at least a little bit subjective in everything we say, but then there are levels and we can go very far away from objectivity.
Thanks for keeping it brief, lads!
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Just likes how @PeachesEnRegalia likes to keep it.
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I can see that you werenât around yet when tetteh was creating his marathon posts about how Rafa was going to tun us into a new version of the great AC Milan. In comparison to them, @Zoran 's and @Sweeting 's posts are just short introductions to the main theme.
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Isnât that what Mancunian babies suck? 
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One of his usernames was tettehsrafalution. Do you remember him? It was way before TAN was created.
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Nah. I wasnât on TIA at the time.
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Freaking newbies⌠
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FIFY
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Got the job on a tettehcaliteh.
Itâs what shit is called in Hindi.
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You learn something new every day.
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Never too old to learn something new?
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Another bloody CB!?
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So Cityâs revival lasted a whole 1 game. What a shame.
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They were lucky to only lose by 2. It was a bad and aimless a performance as Iâve seen from them.
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