Masculinity - What Makes a Man?

I struggle to see the problem with JBP.

His writings encourage people - especially young people, where possible, to take responsibility for their lives. Cannot see anything wrong with that.

He tries to support his arguments with psychological and statistical evidence.

He was wrongly and appallingly mislabeled as a transphobe.

He seems to me to be a very inquisitive individual who actively seeks to further the understanding of the human psyche and dispel myths relating to modern human society.

As far as I am aware he has never acted criminally, never publicly or intentionally hurt anyone, values his family and community and it cannot be denied, he is a snappy dresser.

I listen to what he has to say - he has studied at a far greater depth than I and so there may be an opportunity to learn from him.

I don’t always agree with his points, but then nobody is correct 100% of the time. It is good to have an open, enquiring mind. It is good to question the status quo.

Undoubtedly somebody will “enlighten” me as to why he is such a terrible human?

2 Likes

My impression of Peterson, is that he has drifted from whatever academic underpinnings had once supported his work, and now operates in the realm of pseudoscience, conspiracy and hyperbole to appeal to the majority disillusioned confused right wing boys who make up most of his audience.

As someone said above, he isn’t treated with any seriousness in the academic community, and he is seen more as a bit of a crackpot. What he does is present lunatic ideas with enough academic ‘veneer’ to make it seem respectable

Where he is dangerous is that he has built, and encouraged, a pretty deranged community or defenders and attack dogs who I believe he does not do nearly enough to keep under control. People who disagree with him are hounded and harassed, which is ironic considering his love of free debate. After the interview posted above, Cathy Newman was getting all kinds of horrific abuse and threats online, to the point where Peterson eventually had to intervene, but he did so belatedly, reluctantly and with all the contrition of a mafia boss telling his stooges to ‘leave her alone now boys, she’s had enough’

Could you provide some examples please.

What lunatic ideas?
Who exactly are his deranged followers? People that buy his books or attend his lectures? Are they organised? What are the deranged ideas they are expressing?

Peterson said that Newman was perfectly polite and professional prior to the interview and then as soon as it started she went on the attack. He also said he regretted the “Gotcha” comment. As he said during the interview - Newman had no inhibitions about attacking and offending him.

Interestingly JK Rowling has recently spoken / tweeted about threats to her personally of rape, death, and violence against her family for views she had recently expressed. There are bullies, crazies and “attack dogs” all over the internet, of all shades and leanings. They are not confined to right-wing stooges. Both instances of this behaviour is appaling. Peterson nor Rowling have never to my knowledge encouraged this abhorent behaviour - unless you can enlighten me?

3 Likes

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ppi.1475

2 Likes

the internet is full of keyboard cowboys. the biggest problem (in my humble opinion) is far too many people try to educate themselves off social media instead of using proper standards of research and learning to give themselves the mental tools to differentiate between fact, fiction and opinion. They form their opinions on important concepts with little regard to substance and truth. Mostly, they just try to justify their own pre-existing narrative.

As noted in the US political thread, Fox News isn’t even self-regarded as a news organization…

Then, there’s the veil of anonymity which exists with Social Media users that nearly completely absolves them of any repercussions for their actions online…

5 Likes

Sure.

Peterson has frequently put forward the idea that feminists have a concealed desire for male domination, suggesting that feminists defending Islam are doing so because they secretly long for the patriarchal nature of that faith. He has said that he doesn’t know the difference between sexual invitation and sexual harassment - suggesting this is societies problem rather than his. I think it’s entirely reasonable at this to call him a misogynist and regard his opinions on feminist as barely concealed dislike of women.

He has suggested that humans inherently want to dominate each other because we evolved from Lobsters.

He has compared left wing politics to Nazism, and subscribed to the notion of cultural Marxism. The idea of left wing infiltration into educational institutions and departments with the express organised intention of corrupting the minds of students.

He has refused to accept the notion of white privilege, and continues to downplay the extent to which racism is a factor in holding back black people.

He has posted scorn on gay people’s ability to raise children, and has suggested that a gay family is sub-optimal compared to a hetero-normal family unit.

As for his followers, you only have to look on social media. The abuse, death threats and rape threats against Kathy Newman got so bad the police had to get involved. Anyone on the other side of a debating table from him tell similar stories of being hounded and harassed by sections of his audience.

4 Likes

counter-argument, quoting a section of an article in Vox which references others as well

Peterson became more than just an internet celebrity on January 23, 2018. That’s when his book, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, was published by Random House Canada — and skyrocketed to the top of international best-seller lists. It was after this book’s publication, and the following press tour, that David Brooks pronounced him the world’s most influential public intellectual.

Each chapter of the book is devoted to a specific, somewhat strange-sounding rule. The first chapter is called “Stand up straight with your shoulders back”; the last is “Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street.”

The book is a kind of bridge connecting his academic research on personality and his political punditry. In it, Peterson argues that the problem with society today is that too many people blame their lot in life on forces outside their control — the patriarchy, for example. By taking responsibility for yourself, and following his rules, he says, you can make your own life better.

The first chapter, about posture, begins with an extended discussion of lobsters. Lobster society, inasmuch as it exists, is characterized by territoriality and displays of dominance. Lobsters that dominate these hierarchies have more authoritative body language; weaker ones try to make themselves look smaller and less threatening to more dominant ones.

Peterson argues that humans are very much like lobsters: Our hierarchies are determined by our behaviors. If you want to be happy and powerful, he says, you need to stand up straight:

> If your posture is poor, for example — if you slump, shoulders forward and rounded, chest tucked in, head down, looking small, defeated and ineffectual (protected, in theory, against attack from behind) — then you will feel small, defeated, and ineffectual. The reactions of others will amplify that. People, like lobsters, size each other up, partly in consequence of stance. If you present yourself as defeated, then people will react to you as if you are losing. If you start to straighten up, then people will look at and treat you differently.

“Look for your inspiration to the victorious lobster, with its 350 million years of practical wisdom. Stand up straight, with your shoulders back,” he concludes, in one of the book’s most popular passages.

The lobster has become a sort of symbol of his; the tens of thousands of Peterson fans on his dedicated subreddit even refer to themselves as “lobsters.”

This is classic Peterson: He loves to take stylized facts about the animal kingdom and draw a one-to-one analogy to human behavior. It also has political implications: He argues that because we evolved from lower creatures like lobsters, we inherited dominance structures from them. Inequalities of various kinds aren’t wrong; they’re natural.

“We were struggling for position before we had skin, or hands, or lungs, or bones,” he writes. “There is little more natural than culture. Dominance hierarchies are older than trees.”

The relationship between human and lobster brains is outside Peterson’s area of academic expertise. Experts in the field who have evaluated his claims have found them lacking, as lobsters’ and humans’ neurological systems are radically different. One important distinction is that humans have brains and lobsters (technically speaking) do not.

“If nervous systems were computer games, arthropods like lobsters would be ‘Snake’ on a first-generation mobile phone and vertebrates would be an augmented reality (AR) game,” as Leonor Gonsalves, a neuroscientist at University College London, puts it in a review of Peterson’s argument at The Conversation. “The human brain is hugely malleable … believing that it is ‘natural’ that some people are ‘losers’ because that’s what lobsters do can have dire consequences.”

But Petersonian lobster theory, and the other things like it in the book, aren’t really questions of truth. They’re about providing the sort of alienated young men who are attracted to his broader work a sense of purpose and meaning. It fulfills roughly the same role in their life as religion might; it’s perhaps unsurprising that Peterson is quite interested in the Bible and discusses it often.

“I think his mass following suggests the existence among a substantial cross-section of young men of a deep hunger for moral order that may well be ultimately a religious yearning,” Yuval Levin, vice president of the conservative Ethics and Public Policy Center, tells me. “Peterson is actually fairly careful to distinguish the teaching he’s offering from an explicitly religious teaching, but I think he does that because he grasps that some significant portion of the people looking to him are really looking for something like a religious teacher.”

The difference is that Peterson is reaching people who, for whatever reason, aren’t getting what they need from organized religion alone. In fact, some of his followers are actively hostile to religion, seeing it as fundamentally irrational. He’s a moralist who can appeal to the New Atheist set, even though he doesn’t share their hostility to religion.

This aspect of Peterson’s work is far more sympathetic than his ill-informed and frankly nefarious politics — especially since some of his cardinal rules, like “tell the truth,” are perfectly good moral precepts to live by.

It’s worth watching a five-minute excerpt from a BBC interview about his role as a mentor for young men. Peterson openly starts to cry at the beginning:

“Last night, I was at this talk I gave. And about a thousand people came, and about 500 of them stayed afterward. And most of them are young men,” Peterson says, starting to tear up. “And one of them after another comes up and shakes my hand and says, ‘I’ve been listening to what you’ve been saying … I started cleaning up my room, and working on my life, and I’ve started working hard on myself, and I just want to thank you for helping me.”

When you watch this interview, you get a sense of what Peterson must have been like with his patients as a clinical psychologist — empathetic, passionate, deeply concerned with the welfare of his patients. It’s moving, really.

But Peterson has inextricably intertwined his self-help approach with a kind of reactionary politics that validates white, straight, and cisgender men at the expense of everyone else. He gives them a sense of purpose by, in part, tearing other people down — by insisting that the world can and should revolve around them and their problems.

This painful contrast is on display later in that very interview, in which he explicitly argues that concern for sexism is to blame for the plight of the West’s young men.

“We’re so stupid. We’re alienating young men. We’re telling them that they’re patriarchal oppressors and denizens of rape culture,” he says. “It’s awful. It’s so destructive. It’s so unnecessary. And it’s so sad.”

The empathy that he displays for men and boys in his BBC interview and 12 Rules for Life is touching. The problem is that he can’t seem to extend it to anyone else.

4 Likes

WeeJoe, Mascot, Semmy -

Just wanted to say thanks for helping me, at least, get a better grasp on JBP.

1 Like

That’s the counter-argument?

1 Like

In terms of how this relates to the actual subject of this thread…“masculinity - what makes a man?” I figure it’s pretty on-point…don’t you?

1 Like

This article from The Guardian pretty much refutes most of your objections.

Cathy Newman in their interview, constantly repeated " What you are saying is" and then got the data and the point completely wrong. His portrayal by the media is often a knee-jerk reaction intentionally or otherwise, spun to get an audience.

"When news consumers get around to reading or watching Peterson’s work for themselves, they often find his ideas far less radical than characterized – and feel betrayed by the media and cultural elite’s representation of Peterson.

The notion that there is nothing redeemable in Peterson’s message – and the accompanying assumption that any fan of his is beneath contempt – is not only wrong but represents a rather bleak, zero-sum vision of politics."

As is most common today, people are more willing to be informed by clickbait media, than actually doing the reading and learning for themselves. If you want to learn about what he is really saying I would suggest to anyone to read his books rather than relying on 10-second generalisations or the opinions of “zero-sum” commentators.

“Anyone who makes even a cursory investigation of Peterson’s work knows that his harshest rebukes aren’t addressed to women, but men, whom he urges to reject self-pity and embrace self-improvement. These aren’t messages tailored to resentful, women-hating “incels” and men’s rights activists; they’re the opposite.”

1 Like

You asked for examples of his batshit ideas and his deranged fanboys.

What’s I’d say to the above, is if we’ve all got Peterson’s idea’s totally wrong, then Peterson himself isn’t doing that much to correct that.

It’s almost as if sometime between 2010 and the present day he realised that there was money to be made from women hating intel’s and men’s rights activists.

1 Like

I did. And you provided none.

Who exactly are his “deranged fanboys” - to which organisation do they belong?

He uses the Lobster as an evolutionary illustration of hierarchical organisations within the animal kingdom - something that is prevalent in almost all species. A point that could easily have been made using baboons, alligators or chickens. He just chose Lobsters to illustrate an ancestral social order - he is interested in the development of the brain, the mind, and consciousness and how that impacts and has impacted society. It’s a book primarily about psychology - which kinda makes sense given…

Perhaps actually read his books as a starting point - it may challenge your media-proscribed ideas about him. I am sure those ultra-right-wing fanboys at the Guardian would recommend doing so.

1 Like

No, I provided you plenty.

Drawing inferences about human relationships from the behaviour of lobsters is batshit, as is his idea that women secretly want to be dominated, as is the idea that black people aren’t held back by racism.

As for his followers, you seem to be pouring scorn on the idea because there isn’t some sort of official club to join. The fact is there is a sizeable community of people who round on his opponents, often with violent and aggressive threats, and Peterson does little to discourage this.

I won’t be reading his books thanks. I’ve read a few of his essays, and on that basis I don’t feel the need to give him any more time.

1 Like

These ones?

1 Like

This article highlights a few of his less compelling suggestions.

3 Likes

What a classic far-right/far-left/conspiracy theory retort. “Media-proscribed”.

For what it’s worth, he’s not even a particularly good academic. Given that a large body of his work deals with personality, one would thought someone who’s an academic in that area would know better than to wildly extrapolate off limited studies, given how (as of 2016 at least), most studies into personality have only very limited capacity to generalise, especially since most of the results (at least, as I recall it) are mainly correlational rather than displaying any direct causative link.

Yet Mr Peterson feels comfortable spreading his psychobabble junk and taking this lax attitude to lend a veneer of academic legitimacy to his personal beliefs.

No thanks.

3 Likes

Thanks very much - I came up with that on my own.

So has anyone actually read his books?

1 Like

I’ve read 12 rules for life. It’s a rambling mess of a book full of ideas and anecdotes that he believes act as ‘proof’ of his weird ideas. Very much like klopptimists examples of individual people who acted in a particular way being proof of some wide sweeping generalization.

He often seems to start from incredibly flimsy points that nobody is actually making to come up with arguments against that point using evidence which doesn’t hold up particularly well.

2 Likes

I have no interest in giving this charlatan any money.

Nice to see you ignored the rest of the post.

1 Like