I really wish I hadn’t read that
Which part of it?
Yeah, this is why the issues around trans rights are incredibly, incredibly difficult to resolve. You have the rights of two groups of people completely in opposition to each other. Women have a right, for a variety of reasons, to female only spaces. People who were identified as male at birth have the right to be treated as women.
Fuck knows what we do about that. It’s pretty much impossible to resolve.
But I don’t think it’s helps to give the amount of airtime we do to attention seekers who, at best, are suffering from a psychological disorder. And I think there is a snide reason for how these stories are promoted, and that’s all about creating a culture of ridicule around any kind of dysmorphia.
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Putting other opinions aside, in this particular case, it would have been easier if this individual had undergone gender reassignment surgery and removed his genitals but with the penis still there, its really hard to convince the general public that this individual should be accorded respect in terms of his gender identity especially in locations where there would be vulnerable individuals too.
I agree that its difficult and that is why I get bemused at times even in my own circle that they suggest that the rights and concerns of some section of society should be sacrificed for the sake of another section of the society. That is taking the easy way out to me.
And I don’t agree with you in the sense that we should not be giving such news airtime. We should be giving news of both ends airtime whenever there are, to ensure issues on both sides get equal address. What I think you are driving at and what I would agree is that people should stop taking such news on either end to make it an agenda to push for the rights of one end and suppressing or ignoring the other.
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That’s not what I’m saying. I think there is a disproportionate weight given to stories that have the wtf value to them. Maybe that’s the nature of audience led news, but too many people’s experience of gender dysmorphia is framed by hysterical stories that don’t reflect 99% of people’s experiences in the real word.
It’s why the ‘where does it all end’ woe is most people’s reaction to any push for rights for transgender people. The number of people I’ve had conversions with about this and it always ends up along the lines of ‘yeah, but I saw a thing about someone who identifies as a tree, and want to be planted and have dogs piss on them - where does it all end?’. There probably is a person out there who identifies as a tree, but I don’t think giving them disproportionate airtime so people can easily mock any kind of body dysmorphia is helpful.
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I can give you that because afterall that is what you experienced and heard, and I cannot dispute that reality for you. What I am suggesting is that, we hear what we hear because of our cultures, beliefs, values, bias etc. You and I hear more of certain issues or things because simply we are ‘more tuned into’ those. Its like what I realized when I heard some of my American friends, some of them simply will never tune in to Fox or CNN depending who they support. And as a result, its quite likely they hear more of certain issues and not the other side…or at least refuse to. I am not suggesting you are that, what I think is that in this world nowadays, there is a dangerous attitude of its either you are for me, or you are against me without really understanding what is so troubling for the other party.
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The reality is that people who genuinely identify as women are not going to be proudly publicly displaying their penis. This story is either a case of a mortifying accidental reveal that has been retold as if the person in question was purposefully displaying their cock, or a case of a fucking shit head who did something for shits and giggles precisely to create the sort of ridiculous story Mascot is talking about in the interest of demeaning a cause.
The reality is that in high school we were all taught about gender based on 3 things - xy chromosomes, internal reproductive anatomy, and external genitalia. What we have come to understand is these are far more guides than biological rules, as there is discrepancy among these 3 elements in as much as 10% of the population. This means that unequivocally we cannot demand that the world applies a simple minded definition like “if its got a cock and balls then its a dude” that we know to be wrong. Once you comes to terms with that complexity it opens the door to more complicated forms of gender dysmorphia, where we cannot identify the cause of the disconnect but have to take the word of the individual.
None of this can be compared to a person using confusion over the sex/gender issue to simply declare themselves as identifying as something they are demonstrably not, such as now identifying as a member of an ethnic group you have no connection to. Coverage of these stories without explicitly calling out that difference to the sex/gender issue is irresponsible.
But wouldn’t your first paragraph again brushing off the concerns of those women who complained to the Spa management? (I am not going to post the video, but it can be easily searched for WI SPA california women complaint etc) Its like if an issue like this is brought up, we brushed it off with hey there must be a misunderstanding somewhere, it must have been blown up as an agenda etc…but when its the other side, oh lets get behind them.
In this particular video, the woman questioned the Spa management why was this individual allowed into the all female section when everyone is nude and this person has his penis in full view of everyone. And it must have been intentional because the Spa management answered that this person had verbalized to them that he identifies as female so they are legally obliged to let him into the female section. So I am not sure whether it was accidental or not.
My point remains is that it must be a terrible feeling to not have people understand and accept you for who you are. And no one should be made to feel less than human just because you are supposedly different from the societal norms. But yet, we cannot brush it off when there are genuine concerns on the other side. A genuine concern aired 100 times, overplayed, is still a genuine concern. I emphasize, while in reality its not an easy thing to resolve, it cannot come from an attitude of its either this or that.
EDIT: And personally if a person with a dick walks in and shows his dick to my niece in a spa, he is going to get bashing from me, regardless of what he identifies as. That is me.
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That I can agree with, its similar to using All Lives Matter to diminish the BLM movement in certain ways.
Not really, but what it is similar to is the way the particularly salacious extreme stories at the fringes of homosexuality used to be over represented and used to taint and bias people’s idea of gay culture.
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I have no problem with anyone identifying however they want. Vive la difference as the saying goes.
Where I do have a problem is when “Transgender Rights” impinge upon Women’s Rights. This includes the well-documented cases that have occurred in sport, prisons and women’s crisis centres, a well as natural concerns about women’s safety/privacy in general.
":Dr Debbie Hayton, who has herself transitioned, opposed reforming the Gender Recognition Act, saying society is still ‘‘riddled with sexism and sexist discrimination’’.
‘‘Women have fought for sex-based protections and services, female spaces and female associations, and schemes to promote women in business, politics and society. These are all under threat from the concept of self-identification.’’ BBC website 10 June 21.
A very difficult and complex problem with no easy solutions.
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And that’s a point that I think everyone agrees with. This is really hard to resolve. I actually think most progressive causes are pretty simple, but the rights of transgendered people versus the rights of women, is near impossible to resolve.
But whenever this thread rises from the ashes there is a fairly good chance someone has found a story on the internet about someone incident where that balance has gone wrong or another extreme case of body dysmorphia, and they are posting it with a sub-Clarkson hangdog expression on their face, as they wearily shake their head and mutter ‘you couldn’t make it up’.
These examples don’t help what’s already a very difficult issue. And the over-reporting of stories like the spa one reinforces the idea that the rights of people to identify with a gender they feel comfortably is negated by the scores and scores of men dressing up in drag, and putting up with all the ridicule and hassle that entails, so they can get their cock out in a women’s changing room.
Yeah, Im not saying the women who complained are wrong. I am saying the situation is not representative of what treating trans people with dignity and understand necessitates.
So much of the bathroom law discussions are based on conservatives (for lack of a better term to use) complaining that it will allow perverted men to walk into a woman’s bathroom and expose themselves for sexual self-gratification and trans people saying “that is not remotely how this works.” And so cases like this are feel far more likely to be a case of said conservative trying to prove their point by enacting a stunt, or someone with other issues using this as an avenue to get kicks.
Makes you wonder what it is about American Conservatives that makes their mind immediately go there. It’s like how so many Christian fundamentalists are the most homophobic people in the world. I mean, to be that outspoken and angry, they’ve got to be secretly gagging for cock.
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Good on Tyrone Mings:
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Also saw that Gary Neville had a pop at Boris over this yesterday as well.
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They’re fucking kids - what the fuck is wrong with people. Hope they all get chucked out of the academy. Ofcourse, they will just end up in different local clubs and it’ll be swept under the rug.
Sadly I think you have just hit the nail on the head. Portsmouth release them, and they will no doubt have a bunch of National League level clubs lining up to sign them