Racism and all the bad -isms

These days I tend to reserve judgement on things where the trans community has expressed outrage and labelled someone as transphobic.

On an individual level I respect everyone on the same level until they give me cause to lose or gain respect for them and of course this goes for members of the trans community.

On a broader level, I find some of the actions and reactions of the trans community to be troubling. For example there was an article I read earlier in the week regarding lesbian women being pressured by men who identify as women (both pre and post op) to have sex.

Of course the article was immediately condemned as being dangerous and not having balanced views from both sides of the discussion. Myself having read the article knew that people from the trans community had been approached to give their views, but all had declined.

I have not seen the Chapelle doc, so cannot comment. But all too often anyone speaking in defence of womens rights, lesbian rights, personal choice or sexual preferences is labelled as transphobic. I don’t think it’s helpful in the conversations around the issues facing the trans community and shuts down any meaningful discussion.

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If only more people adopted such a sensible approach. :+1:

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Are you talking about Lounden county school story. This is a story presented by the RW outlets as an example of the reasons trans people should have to use the bathroom according to the gender on their birth certificate. They present it as a story of a male faking an identity as female for the purpose of being able to corner his female classmates and rape them.

The story was actually one of a cis-hetro couple using the bathroom for regular hook ups, but one time the boy went too far and forced her into acts she didnt want to do. When that assault was reported the school refused to act on it and so the father of the girl then claimed the boy was gender fluid knowing doing so would drive attention to the story it wasnt getting in the hope of getting justice for his daughter.

The trans community have largely refused to comment on the story because its got nothing to do with them.

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As for Dave’s show, the bit in question starts with him referring to himself as a TERF. This means someone who claims to be be for women’s rights, just at the exclusion of trans women. This is a pretty shitty stance and one based on a refusal to accept what is known about being trans. It’s dangerous ground, but this is what Dave’s made his career on, so my reaction was to hold my breath and see where he was going to go with it.

The answer was that there was no comedy, instead it was just an extended whinge. Trans people need to be able to take a joke. Trans people need to exist on the terms he’s comfortable with. His black people who got called out for saying shitty things about LGBTQ people only do because the people doing it are racist not because they care about LGBTQ people (somehow seeming to conflate being trans and being white). It was awful. There were no jokes, it was just a case of an old grumpy guy yelling at a cloud.

He tries to tie this up by referencing an supposed friend of his, a female trans comedian. He raises her as an example of the way trans people should be because she could take a joke about her transness, misgendering her and saying she’d love the joke as an example of the way she “got it”. Ignoring that he fundamentally gets a lot of stuff wrong about being trans, this whole line is the equivalent of white guys thinking they can use the N word because they’ve got a black friend who never called them out for it. Dave is a comedian who famously walked away from comedy because his skits that were written to lampoon racist tropes had instead been adopted by the white people who were comfy perpetuating those tropes. I cannot believe a man who experienced the issue as deeply as he did with that situation would not see the hypocrisy of this stance on this.

It’s also important to point out that this paragon of being able to take the joke committed suicide. Clearly she was not as ok with the whole situation as she ever let on to Dave in his presence. I dont get how someone can continue to use her in the way Dave does after this.

The sad part is there is material in here that a comic as skilled and insightful as Dave (used to be) could have crushed. He just doesn’t have anything insightful to say about these things though.

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No it was not that story

Caitlyn Jenner has come out in support of Chappelle.

Caitlyn wrote on Twitter: “Dave Chappelle is 100 per cent right. This isn’t about the LGBTQ movement. It’s about woke cancel culture run amok, trying to silence free speech. We must never yield or bow to those who wish to stop us from speaking our minds.”

So who is actually offended by his comments? The protest at Netflix was started by a person that has made previous online comments that would make a Nazi blush. There is somehow some merit in supporting that persons views? It seems the “offended” are those speaking on behalf of the community. How wonderfully patronising and condescending.

What exactly is the end-game of these critics? No comedy? A world where you pussyfoot around everybody dreading that you may say something that is construed as slightly offensive? A beige, boring colourless existence where the game is who can be offended the most or the quickest? Just because somebody does not agree with you is not “offensive” - it is called an argument. a difference of opinion a debate. As JC says (Cleese not Christ) - all comedy is critical - comedy brings a sense of perspective to issues.

The hope has been for some time that the opposition to this cancel culture would lay down and accept it. Go along with it for fear of being labelled themselves. Fortunately, the adults are re-entering the room and opposition to this nasty little culture is growing. (Now there’s a gilt-edged opportunity to label and condemn the writer as one of the “phobics” )

The next step is probably just to ignore it (as Chapelle seems to be doing) and continue with life in the manner so eloquently mentioned above.

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Chapelle is grifting on it. He is not being cancelled, and instead is devoting material to pretending to be cancelled.

And I think this really illustrates part of the problem - when phrases become politicized they end up meaning completely different things to different people. We’ve got what is often considered a bell weather election tomorrow in Virginia for the governonor’s office and the central theme of that election appears to be the teaching of CRT in schools. It’s an issue made up out of whole cloth because its a term that has a meaning that is completely made up to the side who are politicizing it.

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Wow…

Yorkshire are rightly going to get torn apart over their handling of this.

This stands out for me…

At least one Yorkshire player admitted to regularly using the term ‘P**i’ when talking to Azeem Rafiq, according to the report into racism at the club. But he was cleared of wrongdoing on the basis that it was perceived as, what the report says was, friendly, good-natured “banter” between the two players.

The player also admitted to telling other people “don’t talk to him [Rafiq], he’s a P**i”, asking “is that your uncle?” when they saw bearded Asian men and saying “does your dad own those?” in reference to corner shops.

Despite admitting recalling that Rafiq broke down in tears at one point, the player insisted he had no idea he was causing offence and would have stopped if Rafiq had asked.

The individual concerned, who ESPNcricinfo have chosen not to name, is a current senior player at the club.

While the investigating team (the lawyers who were charged with gathering evidence for the report) found such comments to be “capable of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment…” and accepted Rafiq’s “evidence that he was offended, degraded or humiliated and that this amounted to harassment under the Equality Act and the Club’s Equal Opportunities policy”, the panel (who were charged with making conclusions and recommendations and which included a non-executive member of the Yorkshire board) disagreed.

Their conclusions state “The Panel does not accept that Azeem was offended by [the other player’s] comments, either at the time they were made or subsequently.”

They go on to say that, in the context of “banter between friends” Rafiq might be “expected to take such comments in the spirit in which they were intended (i.e. good natured banter between friends)… [so] it was not reasonable for Azeem to have been offended by [the other player] directing equally offensive or derogatory comments back at him in the same spirit of friendly banter.”

Indeed, the panel accuses Rafiq of using “offensive, racially derogatory comments” when referring to a player of Zimbabwean heritage as “Zimbo from Zimbabwe”. The panel viewed this as “a racist, derogatory term” and recommends that, were Rafiq still a Yorkshire player, he should face disciplinary action for using it.

The revelation, which comes days after Yorkshire announced that none of their players, coaches or executives would face disciplinary action as a result of the investigation, may increase doubts over the process and the report that has produced. In particular, equating the terms ‘P**i’, which is a long-established derogatory term with a history of racist usage, and ‘Zimbo’, which is generally held to be an abbreviation akin to Aussie or Kiwi without pejorative association, is likely to raise eyebrows.

The ECB, who have been sent Yorkshire’s report in recent days after several month’s delay, are currently reviewing the information.

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So much wrong going here I don’t even know where to begin!

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To be fair, this isn’t a new thing.

There was a time when you could switch on the TV on a Saturday afternoon and see comedy making fun of gay people. Awful racist programmes mocking ‘paki’s’ and ‘nignogs’. You could see horrible misogenistic shit like On the Buses, or the Carry On films.

Every time we decided, as a society that it was time to stop some of this awful shit, it was met with howls of disapproval from the old guard decrying the death of comedy, that the killjoys were taking over and that it would lead to bland, colourless culture.

It wasn’t true then, and it won’t be true now.

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Jesus Christ almighty. There are no words.

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I’m offended by this. Jesus had nothing to do with it. Blasphemy!
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not wrong the big lebowski GIF

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Drawing Motivation GIF

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No it’s not quite the same.

The “old guard” of comedy realized that their brand of humour was outmoded and no longer accepted by the public. It was adapt your material or die - this included screenwriters and producers. Many comedians that had previously performed routines that today would be classed as racist/misogynist/homophobic, adapted their acts to the prevailing social norms.If they didn’t they rightly perished as performers.

Today, if a comedian makes one false move, in the eyes of the perpetually offended, or the companies that employ him fail to act, the repercussions for them, are that they “get cancelled” Career practically over. Judge Jury and Executioner all contained in one neat little offended package of the outraged. - It was Netflix employees that began the latest pathetic campaign against Chapelle, not the general public, Chapelle rightly told them to fuck off. As many other comedians are beginning to do.

It is the attempt to cancel discourse and observation that most people find so repellent. And it is dangerous. Just because you find something offensive doesn’t mean I find it offensive and vice versa.

Just because somebody is offended does not give them the right to speak for everyone. The actions of certain “offended” groups do not necessarily reflect the current cultural thinking. It is just that until now people have been too scared to tell them to fuck off and grow up. You do not have to listen or watch, you can choose to ignore most things that distress you. Everything does not have to be politicised.

This from 4 days ago - certainly not to my taste in comedy and having read about it, not a comedian I would pay money to see - and therein lies the power. The free market will decide who thrives and who does not.

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You seriously think Chappele is experiencing this punishment?

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No
I think an attempt was made to mete out such punishment - to grow a movement against him, but because of his standing, his attitude to the call to cancel him and the overwhelming lack of support for it, (because it was pretty much baseless,) then in this circumstance their attempt failed.

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So he made one false move in the eyes of so called perpetually offended and did not in fact have his career ended.

PS it wasnt “one false move.” That whole portion of the special was a response to receiving grief for previous shitty comments about trans people. It’s a pattern where he says stuff gets blow back and nothing happens except for him to continue to moan about it. Because “cancel culture” is not actually consistent with what the people who moan about say it is.

But I think the more fundamental issue is yeah heard that and though “yeah, he’s right.”

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I’m not going to be drawn into an argument about Trans people and the way they are treated. As I have stated before -Vive la difference.

My argument is about the cancel culture and free speech - Chapelle as I mentioned, stood up to the cancel culture mob - as he says “Twitter is not a real place.” He attacked cancel culture in his special.

And I agree, cancel culture is not as prevalent as some would suggest - Universities being the main exception where it rules.

When it is justified, if someone uses hate speech, fine - ban them and prosecute them. But trying to get someone canceled on such a flimsy “offense” says more about the group engaging in it than it does about Chapelle. There are already long-standing boundaries in society and in the law that cannot be crossed without punishment. I have not seen or read an example of Chapelle doing so.

The organiser of the protest against him on the other hand - she should maybe be investigated and prosecuted for racist hate speech against the Asian community. Chappelle’s comments fade into insignificance compared to some of her “tweets.” I find it hard to believe that any decent human could support what she says and her motivations should be deeply questioned.

From The NY Times - Netflix statement.

“Several of you have also asked where we draw the line on hate,” Mr. Sarandos wrote in the memo. “We don’t allow titles on Netflix that are designed to incite hate or violence, and we don’t believe ‘The Closer’ crosses that line. I recognize, however, that distinguishing between commentary and harm is hard, especially with stand-up comedy which exists to push boundaries. Some people find the art of stand-up to be meanspirited, but our members enjoy it, and it’s an important part of our content offering.”

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A sample of the tweets from one of the organisers of the protest accusing Dave Chapelle of being offensive.