I never saw the Wellcome exhibits so do not understand the context of how they were presented but while I am never a big fan of museums, there have been some that left a very deep impression like the genocide museum in Cambodia and the Holocaust museum in the US. Like the genocide museum in Cambodia, it awakens your inner senses of justice and fear and I unknowingly cried as I walked through the museum because it exhibits the tools used to kill millions of people, how they buried them, how they stifled the cries of the children they killed, they tell of the ideas of Pol Pot on why he did those things, I cannot speak for myself but seeing these things only tell me one thing, these must never happen again. So for those offended by the Wellcome exhibits, was it because there were explicit displays that glorified the slavery past of white masters superiority over the slaves or was it a display of simply what it is for people to learn what happened in the past and hopefully people of modern days never allowed these dark times to return.
I am asking because to me if I were to visit this museum, I would probably have the same thoughts and learnings like I took away from the visits to the Genocide museum or the Holocaust museum but if there are any hints that the exhibits are glorifying these pasts, then I would be shocked and alarmed. If not, like many other museums, why could it not be there as a learning and reminder? Just curious for those who know more details about this particular exhibit.
There was this African empire Dahomet which made fortunes selling African slaves. Again very uncomfortable to the narrative that slavery is / was.mainly to do with the Europeans.
Once again, how far back are you going? Do feel free to answer at some point.
And more importantly, why are you only going back to that point? And presumably given EVERYBODY is desperate for equality, are these reparations necessary for every nation that’s done heinous things?
I am curious - what would “closure” look like? How would it be administered and achieved and by/for whom?
Is it an abstract concept or an achievable real world, practical objective with a defined outcome?
“African slave trading does not negate our responsibility to atone for our role.”
Who is “our”?
Who should the “our” atone to?
What shape would this atonement take?
Money? Land? A heartfelt apology then business as usual? Legislation? A festival of happy clappy to affirm our solidarity.
What process would someone have to go through to prove that they should benefit?
How do you prevent a few greedy corrupt individuals becoming fabulously wealthy (See BLM movement) at the expense of those that really need assistance.
This is not “whataboutism” this is about uncovering the actual concrete practicalities of the “closure” and “atonement” that you propose and how they may be achieved.
I’m a middle aged white man. It’s really not for me to decide what closure for slavery looks like.
I’m just pointing out that @Klopptimist’s wish to put it in the past and move on is going to be very hard while he’s also calling people who do take offence at celebrating slave traders ‘snowflakes’. Just like you, with your ‘black people were slavers too’ whataboutery.
As long as this kind of white fragility dominates the conversation, we’re not going to be at peace with our history,
The concept of closure is an interesting one anyway. It was brought into the conversation by @Klopptimist not me. But I suspect for someone like him, it might mean we just don’t talk about this anymore and we pretend everything is OK now. For a person of African ancestry, it might be a case of ‘can I please not be placed at a substantial socio-economic disadvantage because my ancestors were stolen’.
It’s ridiculous to suggest that the theoretical oppression of your untraceable and impossible to prove ancestors from over a thousand years ago have disadvantaged you in any way. You are trying to draw an equivalence between this and black people feeling the effects of their ancestors treatment from a couple of hundred years ago.
Christ almighty, stop and have a think about this for a second. It’s a quite ugly line of thinking.
The romans was just a hypothetical. There are far more serious events that have affected this country much more recently than slavery. Should we sort out the most recent first where those affected might actually still be alive?
Pretty sure we outlawed slavery over 200 years ago. Who’s still feeling the effects please?
We live in a society scarred by institutional racism. The roots of this go back to slavery.
We haven’t moved on. Black people are still treated as lesser, across a range of sectors and the fact remains that if you are a person with black or brown skin, you are likely to find it much harder to get on in life than a person with white skin (not all black people and not all white people, but in general having black skin is a disadvantage).
(I have, but I didn’t need it to tell me we live in a deeply racist society, I’m as prone to subconscious racist thoughts as anyone, and taking steps to circumnavigate that bias is a good thing)
I have read, and learned a great deal, from DiAngelo’s book ‘white fragility’. I found some of it a stretch, and she has her critics, but on the whole the central point is sound - societies like ours are structurally racist having been founded on racist principles (such as the slave trade). White people tend to get very defensive when confronted with this, refusing to acknowledge it and instead resorting to special pleading and whataboutery.
If you want to see some examples of this, have a look up the thread.
Nice. Another post that puts zero meat on your argument. Just the vague accusation that this does exist and it’s obvious and we should all be aware of it. Give me please one single solid example of the adverse effects of slavery in the UK today.
Just get it out there, I’m a toxic fragile white masculine cis man. I can’t cope with anybody criticising me or my privilege. Ah critical race theory, everybody’s racist if they’re white. Obviously the chinese aren’t racist (hello Disney Starwars adverts) as an example.
I played cricket against a West Indian team a few years ago. Got chatting to their captain who was telling me about their end of season game. Every wide, take a shot of rum. Every 4 or 6, take a shot of rum, every catch and drop, well you can guess. “Please let me play in that game this season” I said. He smiled through superb golden teeth and said “You can’t play, you not black!”. I laughed my fucking head off because it was a very funny comment.
Imagine that conversation the other way round. Racism only ever seems to go one way. Ironically and contrary to your accusation, doesn’t bother me in the least.
Don’t know why we bother, chalk and cheese as ever.
[quote=“Klopptimist, post:1725, topic:1336, full:true”]
Nice. Another post that puts zero meat on your argument. Just the vague accusation that this does exist and it’s obvious and we should all be aware of it. Give me please one single solid example of the adverse effects of slavery in the UK today.[/quote]
You’ve already mocked the idea of unconscious bias. You’ve not really attempted to understand what is meant by structural racism. You think that some hypothetical ancestors who were oppressed by Vikings is the same as the African slave trade. You’re solution to celebratory statues of slave traders is to blame people for the offence they feel at this, put trigger warning up and call them snowflakes.
Why then am I going to spend my time researching and providing you with examples of lasting impacts of the slave trade? What qualities have you shown that make me in any way reassured that you’d actually read an argument in good faith and it wouldn’t be a complete waste of my time?
Nope. People aren’t racist because they are white. White people have benefitted from and have been shaped by societies that are structurally racist. There is a difference.
So nothing then, Not a single idea.
Just adding to a continuing guilt trip for people who had zero involvement in the slave trade (any slave trade) and how they should somehow atone for alleged sins that they did not commit.
Then tired old accusations of “whataboutism,” when if you had even bothered to read the WSJ article it is all about West Africans discussing how they can make amends and face up to their ancestors role in this heinous period.
And then of course thinly disguised allegations of racism.
No concrete plan, no definitions of what should happen or to whom, no identification of who should atone, when they should do it, how they should do it. Just layer after layer of guilt with no plausible way to resolve it.
Throwaway statements like “we need to achieve closure” and “We should atone.” do nothing to solve this issue - in fact they just add fuel to the fire.
They do more harm than good.
It’s not whataboutism - it’s despair that for all the good intentions, there is not a single logical, reasoned attempt to deal with the problem, just trite throwaway mantras.
It’s the equivalent of painting a CND symbol on an underpass wall on a wet Tuesday.
Because you vaguely alluded to them and use said allusions to attempt to prove your point. Justify or retract. Otherwise I can just say you’re wrong. That can be asserted without facts can equally be rejected without facts. Cheers Hitch, ish.
You give me one fact that the slave trade adversely affects people in the UK today and I’m all eyes.
I’ll give you one. Utterly factual. The slave trade adversely affects football fans of other clubs today as without the trade, Liverpool would never have grown to the city it is now and accordingly wouldn’t have had the people to support (and pay) for our club. How’s that? Inconvenient truth right there. But then I don’t claim to have the moral foundation which would stop me supporting a team owned by oil whilst supporting one built partly on the back of slavery. You do see the cognitive dissonance here don’t you?
Again, statements of fact with no single example. I’ll give you an example of structural racism. A kid at a recent dance comp I was at was more back row at rugby than ballet dancer. She was the only black kid out of the whole comp (over a hundred). Didn’t have poise, grace, athleticism or physical control. Did get an award though. Was quite embarrassing really as it was done so blatantly. Have to tick those boxes you know.
Meritocracy be dammed, we need diversity and inclusion.