This isn’t intended to be controversial.
But having read @BigJon posts, there is a question that I think is relevant.
Is it ok to note that some sectors of society, some nationalities etc are better at something without it being seen as racist?
Its a genuine question.
We are aware that some nations are better at football, some nations are leading the way on track and field.
If we recognise this, how is it racist to discuss it?
To be honest, I cannot understand some of the stuff described as racist anymore.
If we called out a the stigma inducing comments on mental illness we would have another fiery discussion.
Let’s face it, Cool Runnings just wouldn’t have worked if it was about the Estonian bobsled team, because the whole point is that Jamaica traditionally doesn’t have a lot of snow while Estonia does.
Thing is, the Jamaicans have now competed at 7 olympics and have a womens team while Estonia have only had a team since 2014 and I don’t think they have qualified yet.
My point being that bringing race into the conversation isn’t really relevant,and even talking about societies and countries may not be worthwhile as some might assume that a country like Estonia might be better at Bobsledding than Jamaica.
For any sport or art in a given country, there will always be different areas where they concentrate the funding, and usually it will be in areas that those countries traditionally already do well in. Additionally there will be different sectors of society who are exposed to different sports and some who never will, which is why the US have never had a black Equestrian competitor in the olympics. And it’s not because black people can’t ride horses.
England are a better football nation than Switzerland. That is an objective fact which can be verified through all kinds of factors.
However, if you are a youth coach and have to chose between an English and a Swiss youngster both playing football at an equivalent level, and you say: “I’ll take the English lad, they are better at football than the Swiss.” then it’s not ok imo…
That’s bizarre to me. Does race really extend to what nationality you hold?
English people should be proud English because of the values they hold over others, or things they do better than others as should the Swiss people be proud to be Swiss for example because they make better chocolate than we do or their people are far more linguistic than we are, and as someone from England I have no problem saying I’d take a lindt chocolate off the shelf over a Dairy Milk.
A couple of weeks ago I was asked at work to not keep apologising for ‘being a bit OCD’. The person explained that they actually have OCD and using it as a shorthand for being picky and fastidious isn’t helpful to having her condition accepted.
There are two ways to respond to that, aren’t there. The first is to get defensive, lash out and insist you don’t have a problem. The second is to thank them for their feedback, apologise for the mistake and take it onboard for the future.
The second is far more constructive and better everyone, but you do need to be willing and humble enough to actually accept the criticism.
What it gets to is the reasons why. Iceland is a better football nation than England (per capita, it isn’t even close). There are complex reasons for this, basically none of them are due to innate differences between Icelanders and English people.
I think a lot of people accused of such things and without the appropriate language to express what they really meant will unfortunately dig a deeper hole for themselves.
There is a third way, explain that you meant no harm and that you are commenting on your own traits.
Its simply language, and its not meant as offence.
There is a trend regarding mental health narrative that is much worse than what you are describing, a simple communication issue.
There are charlatans offering help and counsel to people who say their mental health is deteriorated. They have no diagnosable problems and are not being called out for muddying the waters for those with real problems.
Your work colleauge has the right to ask you to stop using the term. But you are doing it in an innocent fashion.
Careful you dont say “my feet are killing me” or the bunion brigade will slaughter you.
True. There are also lots of people who act like being called out for saying things that are problematic is worse than the saying of the thing and so in turning themselves into the victim will find honour in standing their ground (and often going much deeper in response).
Saying a thing someone points out has racist elements to it doesnt make you a racist. Having it pointed it out and valuing your desire to keep saying it as more important than the impact saying it has makes you a racist.
For me, the dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable is whenever a general, objective definition (England are better in football than Switzerland for numerous reasons, mostly cultural ones) gets applied to any individual situation (I’ll take the English youngster because England is a better footballing nation, not because the English youngster is currently better than the Swiss one). That would be racism, or in this case, discrimination based on national prejudice.
Now, apply this to music and @BigJon 's example: a lot of countries in Africa have a tradition of very rhythmical music, with a lot of percussions etc. These rhythms have influenced the world’s music during the XXth century and continue to do so in all kinds of music styles. This is an objective fact and can’t be disputed.
However, concluding from this that all Africans and people of African ascent must have a better understanding of rhythm than say, Europeans or Asiatics, is factually wrong. Race or geographic origin has nothing to do with an individual’s ability to understand rhythm in music.
I’m of the opinion that some people can say the cruelist and most inappropriate of things in such a way,the nicest? way, that it’s hard to call them out on it.Some of us just don’t have that depth of language/communication?
As you can probably tell i’m not a wordsmith so how i express myself is much more basic and can lead me to using the wrong phrase,words or wording.While i have no problem being called out on it,there are better ways to call someone out on a missused word or phrase rather than just going for the jugular.
and THIS is where it went off the rails. He wasn’t saying that people of African descent were necessarily better with rhythm. They have an inherently DIFFERENT rhythm due to that specific culture. Need some input from the Guitars thread fellas on this one, but as an example there’s a style called 7th chord which is a distinct rhythm pattern which many would hear and think “that’s Jamaican reggae” but it’s actually originated in Africa.
Take a listen to this song and as a western culture you’ll be looking for the 4/4 tempo that’s not there, instinctively. but I believe he actually plays on a completely different music timing? 5ths I think?
The way different cultures approach the same situation can be fascinating when it produces such significantly different outcomes as this. Another example I think is wild is that the Finish language doesn’t include a future tense and that has real world impacts on how native Finns plan for the future. But this is not something inherent to the Finns, it is a function of speaking that language. That issue of cultural exposure vs descent is not a particularly nuanced difference and was what was being called out with the statements being made.
Ok
Humour me here.
Big Jon did not demean any culture or race in his statement on rhythm.
How can that statement be called racist?
It might be incorrect, but if it is not demeaning or discriminatory how is it racist?
the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
