that’s the 64,0000 dollar question right there, isn’t it?
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so let’s walk down this path on our tiptoes then and see where that line lies. Here’s an example:
If you’re an endomorph, you’ll have higher ratio of fast-twitch fibres in your body. that’s scientific fact. If you’re looking at the starting line of the 100m Finals at the Olympic games, what conclusions could you draw from what you see? Is there a higher ratio of endomorphs amongst certain genetic lines? Or is there a better training regimen in those countries?
When it comes to ectomorphs, does the same theory apply to those areas of the world which has a natural aptitude in long-distance running?
as an observer, to draw conclusions as such… where does this conversation go?
Back in 20min, gotta drop the kid off
All perfectly fair. But as I said, the problem starts when people say
Which implicitly means: ALL black people. It’s not hypocritical to state that this assertion is totally wrong and has something racist about it. Look at @RedSeven 's definition above.
yes, let’s look at that definition he posted. the bold bit, in particular. how do you draw equalities between the term “different” and “inferior or superior”
I say that the definition is a bit skewed as being able to distinguish differences between races DOES NOT quantify racism on its own. otherwise any scientific study which draws any conclusion of difference between races is in itself…racist?
Nazi ‘scientists’ among others tried to establish racial differences in order to confirm Arian superiority. Of course, they went nowhere with that and weren’t able to prove anything, despite of investing a lot of time and money in their researches.
I don’t really agree with that.
Of course I meant no harm. I’m not setting out with the intention of oppressing the OCD community (Does that even exist? What on earth does it look like - add your own punchline). I think we can start from the basis that no-one is meaning to cause harm. 99% of the time intentions are decent.
OCD (as reflected) is not just about wanting things neat and tidy. It’s a psychological disorder that compels behaviour and is massively disruptive to someone’s life. It’s absolutely fair enough for someone who struggles with that condition to take offence at someone using in a way that trivialises and belittles it. There is an obvious impact in terms of people getting the recognition and support they need.
The issue offence is really interesting? Is it up to the person causing the offence to decide if something is offensive? I find it offensive when people refer to my fellow supporters as ‘bin-dippers’ or mock poverty when bantering about football. Do they get to say it’s just words? They didn’t mean any offence?
You’ve confused several different things here, but presumably what you’re asking about the implications of world class sprinting being an almost exclusively black competition.
Success at this level of athletics requires starting with the right genetics. The history of top level sprinting suggests the correct combination of genes is more common in people with black skin than in others. However, there are two important caveats to this that prevent us saying “black people are faster”
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What this tells us is about the extreme ends of a demographic…the very right end of the bell curve, not the demographic as a whole. In other words, it is not a phenomenon that is universal among black people (a black trait), an unusual combination of genetics traits that are more common in black people. The difference is an important one when generalizing the implications.
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It’s not even an issue of it being black athletes, but a subset of people of West African heritage. Someone of Zulu heritage from South Africa may be no less black skinned than a Hausa from Nigeria, but they are not as likely to be equipped to be a world class sprinter.
People will look at this and say ok it’s not strictly true that black people are faster, but where is the harm? Isn’t it means as a compliment anyway? Well, the most basic answer is that perpetuating these sort of stereotypes limits one’s ability to view the person as a unique individual…to view them for who they are rather than a drone from a group of “others”. Sure, it might seem trivial, but not for the people who are subjected to it.
Fucking hell. A thousand times this. Said more succinctly and impactful than I could ever manage.
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Are we reopening this again?
No-one calling him out suggested he was saying black people were better. That was not the point at all.
We understand completely that he was saying that black people understand rhythm in a different way. And that was the problem. Because as @Hope.in.your.heart is saying, you simply cannot claim that black people just understand rhythm differently. Some might if they have been raised in cultures valuing musical expression and different idioms to those of tradionally western music. But black people feel rhythm differently to white people? Sorry, no.
Jon had many, many opportunities to correct that and explain himself better and he chose to get angry instead.
The right to ask but no right to have the request granted.
True story. I once ended up having a stand up row with someone at a party who started drunkenly making jokes about black men’s cocks (you know the trope - you don’t need me to set it out).
I was pissed as well so it wasn’t my finest hour, but after trying to explain why this was really, really, racist, all she could keep stammering was ‘but it’s a compliment!’
And how do you suppose my employer is likely to react towards me if my response is ‘I’ve heard how this has caused offence and upset, but I’m not going to change this because I think my right to describe a desire for neat and tidy spreadsheets as OCD is more important that someone else having a medical condition trivialised’
Honestly, is my ability to function at work even remotely compromised by this at all?
A lot of this comes down to basic kindness. If someone you worked with said to you ‘ mate, would you mind not saying x, because I have that condition and I find it a bit upsetting’ would you honestly say no?
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I don’t know who you work for. I assure you that if the worst problem you had working for me was a disagreement over the use of OCD, you’d be a very happy bunny.
Who’s to say you don’t have mild OCD?
My response would be. Sort it out and get back to work. But how are you two having a conversation when you’re both working in my mill or up a chimney?
A far less gross example is what I had growing up in football. I’ve said that non-white people were almost non-existent in my youth. One exception was a kid from Swansea who played as a CM on my W Wales side. He was probably one of the most technically sound players I’d played with up to that point. A bit like Gini, he was a player who if you were in trouble you could give him the ball and he’d make sure you retained it. He was a quintessential CM. He was not a particularly remarkable athlete though. It was by no means a liability, but it was not a thing that defined his game. Yet every coach we encountered saw him as a black footballer, not a CM. As such, he’d get judged for the things he didn’t have (game breaking pace) rather than the things he could do (control a midfield). Not all the best U15s had professional potential, but he undoubtedly did, yet he got left behind because coaches were viewing what he could and couldn’t do through the prism of what they expected of a black player in a way they didn’t look at any of the rest of us.
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Like I say, a lot of these things really come down to kindness. Am I really going to refuse to make a tiny change to my language that I wouldn’t notice, and continue to upset a colleague? Who’d be the prick in that scenario.
Also, who is to say I’m not OCD? OCD can be a debilitating condition. It’s not wanting things neat and tidy.
I did this intentionally, thank you for seeing it.
I posted one factual statement, and three different questions which appear to be linked but have not said that they are related, only that they’re stated in same paragraph.
everything you posted is predicated on your own thoughts. I never mentioned race once, it’s only been taken as a conclusion from what i have stated. I didn’t say which year of Olympic Games.
I was not trying to trick anyone, just trying to show how easily it is to “jump to conclusions” and how it can change the tone of a discussion.
You posted it also bang in the middle of a discussion about race. And @Limiescouse did say he presumed you were taking about black sprinters. I think that’s a fair presumption, given the context surrounding it.
the irony of that is the origin of “Aryan” is actually Eurasian. not really all that white.
Seriously though? Every culture has it’s own connection to their own music. Here’s a little tongue-in-cheek laugh about it
I don’t think anyone’s denying it here, but I think the main problem is when you start connecting culture to race/genetics.
It’s very different claiming someone who grew up in such a culture feels rhythm differently to someone who grew up in a different culture, compared to claiming that people feel it differently by virtue of their skin colour or ethnicity.
It’s conflating the two or blurring the distinction, that has led to a lot of the disagreement in this thread, I feel.
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let’s explore this. I’m going to change some words and highlight… substitute “feel” with “connect with”