That just encapsulates so much of what is wrong about society nowadays. Context is seen as an excuse?
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By the people who would be making the decisions yes. Multi millionaire or billionaire types look at results and behaviour and Rafa just simply hasn’t played well with others. Me and you could look through each one and agree or disagree about why Rafa could or couldn’t be held at fault for them. People who own and run football clubs won’t. The most damaging two are Valencia and Inter the scariest (for owners) Liverpool. Its why he’s at Everton in a muted “oh and we’ve hired this guy” instead of City or United rolling out the red carpet for him as a world class manager.
I’m not entirely sure that people who have amassed such fortunes through actual shrewd actions as opposed to luck would be relying on such a perspective. I’d like to think that such people do actually look beyond the surface when making their decisions. Perhaps someone who actually comes into contact with such people would correct me of this perception is wrong.
I don’t think Rafa was unhappy with someone in charge of recruitment at Valencia, ARD you’re being very casual with the facts. Rafa was bought a player for a position and got bought a player for another position. You don’t think Pep or Klopp would be fuming at that? I might be wrong but hasn’t there been a director of football set up in Spain for years?
Klopp has made it very clear that he has the final say on players. Yes, it’s all discussed etc but the final decision is Klopp’s. Nothing to argue there.
Rafa tried to work under H&G until they started making his job impossible. He was willing to wheel and deal until the transfer kitty he thought he had included wages. I think Klopp would have done exactly the same as would most top class managers.
That Inter team was burnt out. It had it’s last hurrah. Did Rafa really say “back me or sack me”? Or was it more of we need new players? Maybe you slightly twisting the facts again? I honestly don’t know, so willing to see links, info about this.
Sometimes you come across as just wanting to win an argument and you’ll say anything. You are good at it though.
Finally, Rafa, I think, is a perfectionist. He won’t suffer fools gladly and is a great human being. Love him. 61 isn’t yesterday’s man. Give him manure’s squad and he’d be fighting for the title.
I don’t get the Bielsa love in compared to Rafa.
Ps. He has made some strange managerial decisions on face value.
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“There are three possibilities for the club,” Benitez told reporters.
"One, 100 per cent support for the coach and buy four or five players to build a stronger team with competition among the players to be able to carry on winning matches and trophies.
"Two, carry on like this without a project, without planning, and go ahead with one person to blame for the whole season getting to May this way.
“The third is to speak to my agent and reach an agreement if there is not this support. Simple.”
You can highlight the problems with the Inter squad as much as you like but we are talking about the largest squad in the league at the time with the highest wage bill in the league and the demand was to add four or five players to it. Not “give me control to let players go and bring better suited players in” etc. This 6 months into a job at a club that had been dominating was a bad bad play by Rafa and hurt his reputation far more than his (justified) war against the yanks here.
And no Klopp would not kick off over the Valencia situation, he faced a much worse situation here over VvD and didn’t kick off. Klopp loves the fact he gets to work with a top class recruitment department that puts together a squad he can win things with. Rafa did not need to throw the Valencia recruitment team under the bus when he left. He’s a great tactician but it’s not like he can win a league with any rabble of shit. Klopp would never be so ungrateful to a recruitment team that put something together he could use. Rafa and Klopp are night and day on that side of things. Klopp thanks and praises people if they deserve it or not.
This is really going too far.
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Utter nonsense. No other words for this comment.
What worse situation did Klopp face over VVD?
Klopp has made it abundantly clear he has the final say. Or are you disputing that? Regards the transfer comittee, Klopp and others work together. Do you think Rafa wouldn’t work with those guys?
That comment about Inter doesn’t exclude the possibility of getting older players out and younger players in. And Inter might have been the highest paid squad, so what? Did they need changes? Definitely.
Does anyone really think H&G were correct in their actions? That can be taken out of the equation.
I think most owners, directors would look at the amount of trophies on Rafa’s CV.
Just to be clear, this isn’t a Rafa vs Klopp thing.
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I think Rafa’s desire to come back here would soften his stance on things like this, but prime Rafa would not have worked under structure we have here.
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I’m not entirely sure he wouldn’t, considering that he didn’t handle the finances side of it even back then. How is what we have currently very dissimilar to a model where a manager identifies the issues with his squad, and relies on his backroom team to fix the issues? Parry did the finances part (terribly, might I add), but identification of players wasn’t just done by Rafa, but more so the entire scouting team. I don’t think any of the frustration came from control, but just the resources he had available, both financially and in terms of the calibre of the backroom team he had available to work with.
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Never heard Rafa moan about working under a director of football set up. In fact, like I said I thought it was the normal set up in Spain.
I think his issue was Rick Parry playing golf instead of getting deals over the line.
1 Rafa would never accept a situation where his prime target who would smash a club record fee was torpedoed by an owner/senior exec. That was ridiculous incompetence and Rafa would not accept that. Klopp never said anything.
2 Klopp is also willing to accept the wisdom of the transfer guys who come to him with a suggestion and tell him the player is good enough. Klopp will then accept their recommendations and OK them. Rafa is a control freak every target is his target and even sometimes then he might reject them. Look at Keane, sacrificed within 6 months despite putting up better numbers than the precious year. A Rafa target. But because the club didn’t land Barry and got Reira instead (and kept hold of Alonso) and we over paid on Keane by the amount we were short on Barry Rafa rebelled against the situation and forced us to sell a player he asked for, at a loss, 6 months after we bought him.
3 No. Not if they fail to land the guys Rafa had identified as his prime targets. Several times we’ve failed to land our prime targets under Klopp and we’ve ended up with the recruitment team suggested alternative instead, Salah for one.
4 Yes it does he wanted to add players because they had injuries and he wanted competition for places. That was the falling out he was let go over. He was probably very jaded over his time here and as unwilling to compromise as he’s ever been in his career but to other football clubs sorry that looks bad.
5 No nobody thinks they were correct. You can only take it out of the equation if you believe other football club owners don’t see themselves in the same kind of category as the crooks though. Many would do the exact same thing without blinking. But its also to show, justified in the eyes of the owners or not, that Rafa can be an extremely dangerous employee to have on your staff.
6 That’ll be why his last jobs were Newcastle, in China and the exalted title challenging Everton then? If you agree that Rafa is a great tactician of a manager then you’ve got to accept something is leading to him getting shit jobs these days.
It’s literally the reason he gave for leaving Valencia! Someone else was making the decisions on what the squad needed most/could be bought on a limited budget.
How do you know Klopp never said anything?
Publicly? Like Rafa would?
Oh I thought you meant in general
There’s so much that is wrong, and again wrapped up in that whole media image that @ISMF was talking about in his earlier post on this topic.
If I recall correctly, this did happen multiple times, not least with us not getting David Villa. I don’t think he would have said anything publicly either if he knew there was a plan to get Virgil in, just later on. Edwards has also built a lot more credit than Parry.
Keane putting better numbers in? What universe are you living in where Keane was anywhere close to being acceptable? He played 36 league games for Spurs the season prior, and got 15 goals, compared to 5 goals in 19 games for us. The season prior, he got 11 in 27, which translates to around maybe those 5 goals in 12 games. Yet another player overly-romanticised because he’s Irish, rather than because he was actually any good. Considering his performances after we sold him, I don’t think your point is even as strong as you think it is.
About Alonso, as much as I loved him, he was not in good form prior to Rafa wanting to sell him. If you were around TIA back then, you’d know that more than half the forums couldn’t wait to sell him and get Barry in. Yet more revisionism with the benefit of hindsight.
It’s again an issue of competence. There is a huge difference between missing out on Julian Brandt and getting Mohamed Salah, and missing out on Simao Sabrosa, Florent Malouda, or Ricardo Quaresma, and getting Jermaine Pennant or Albert Riera.
It looks bad that he was ultimately vindicated by the results? Only in your mind.
And yet many of these boards still hire him.
I think Newcastle was a project that really appealed to him. Especially considering he wasn’t short on suitors back then I think this is once again massive revisionism and downright distortion of facts on your part. I think it’s also telling that he wasn’t looking for other clubs apart from Everton.
In summary, I think you’re talking a load of bullshit, and proving @ISMF’s point very much so.
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I’ve had enough to be honest. I feel like I’m disrespecting a great manager too much. But if everyone’s opinions of Rafa was as accurate as portrayed in here he’d be the most persued manager in the game. There’s reasons why the top clubs aren’t hiring him anymore. If people want to believe there aren’t that’s up to them.
Again, you’re being free with the truth.
Rafa wanted a defender and got an attacking midfielder. He was undermined. He’d worked under that set up at Valencia for a couple of years, no problem.
Rafa wanted what Klopp has. A joined up process. I want a right back who can do this and that, give me a list. Klopp doesn’t have a set up with the club buying players for positions he doesn’t want.
Klopp would not tolerate asking for a defender and Edwards buying an attacking midfielder. Klopp has stated clearly, it’s a process in which he has the final say. And rightly so. It would undermine him.
Regards Inter. Half the squad was over 30. They didn’t spend a dime. Rafa was right and was proved right.
I think he was crazy to take the Inter job. He was on a hiding to nothing. But he was still right about the team.
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You mean like Klopp publicly saying he wanted a fourth senior CB past summer and instead getting Thiago and having to use Fabinho in CB instead? Happens at clubs all the time when you’re trying to bring in multiple targets you won’t always get them all.